Energiestro (store energy by inertia in concrete)

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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Eric DUPONT » 28/12/18, 08:21

the concrete remains at the bottom of the water, it is the volume of water inside the concrete which is replaced by air which is pumped by a water pump.
the same amount of concrete stores more energy with compressed air than if the concrete is used to store energy in gravitational form.

In fact with compressed air it takes very little concrete to store a large amount of energy since concrete does not need to withstand the pressure of the air.
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Remundo » 28/12/18, 14:28

Christophe wrote:Good without laughing, would need a more precise formula ... normally it goes through an integral with possibility of recovering the bars (buffer tank) on the surface as the mass goes up ...

you can see in this good old Sycamore document, on the 9 and 10 pages:
http://sycomoreen.free.fr/syco_francais ... dim%B0.pdf

perso I do not want to do the calculations on this case particularly imprecise. Happy new year guys. 8)
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Eric DUPONT » 29/12/18, 11:22

izentrop wrote:
Christophe wrote: if you manage to estimate the cost of air compression at 200 or 400 bars this would be great
That's the problem, in an adiabatic system, the compression and decompression losses are important, hence the use of the liquid piston.pistonLiquide.gif https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-01674267/document

The Remora project looks promising thanks to this liquid piston. They're looking for an engineer, are you interested? :) https://www.energiesdelamer.eu/publicat ... ieur-bac-8
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the problem is to estimate the volume of concrete necessary to store a certain amount of energy, there is no need to compress at 400 bar to be effective. At 50 meters under water either 5 bar should already get good result, at the sight of nose 1 cubic meter of air at 5 bar contains 6 kg of air that could provide can be 30 wh per kg or about 200 wh per cubic meter of water. If the concrete tank is 10 diameter meter 1000 m3 is 200 kWh.

At 200 meters deep one must be able to store much more because each cubic meter contains a larger mass of compressed air which provides more energy around 80 Wh / kg for 24 kg of air or about 1,5 kWh per cubic meter. and the cost of a concrete bell of 10 meters in diameter becomes small compared to the amount of energy stored. 1500 kWh for a bell of 10 meters.

this system seems to be very suitable for floating wind turbines or the seabed is 300 m and could thus produce energy continuously for cheap. 1500 kWh for a tank of 10 meter on the side it is 1 h storage for a wind turbine 1,5 MW.

Comparatively liquid nitrogen can store nearly 100 times more energy in the same volume. either 100 storage time for a tank of 10 meters and a wind turbine of 1,5 MW on land.
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by izentrop » 30/12/18, 00:03

Eric Dupont wrote: at the nose 1 cubic meter of air at 5 bar contains 6 kg of air which could supply 30 wh per kg or about 200 wh per cubic meter of water.
We are also obliged to believe on our word. The thesis is from 2016, but we need at least one prototype that confirms all this and for the moment :?: :?:
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by dede2002 » 30/12/18, 10:25

Hello :)

In Switzerland we try to compress air in old tunnels, with pressures of the order of 100 bars.
There are exchangers and heat storage, returned to the air during decompression, otherwise the yield would be very low. I do not know the performance of the system nor its cost, compared to a STEP for example, it is less cumbersome, but if there are leaks it may wake the groundhogs ... :P

edit: the performance is announced, but not the power ...

https://www.rts.ch/info/sciences-tech/8 ... alpes.html

http://www.sanovia-energie.ch/blog/suis ... -comprime/
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Eric DUPONT » 30/12/18, 14:58

you have to see the price of photovoltaic energy. if it is 2 cents the kwh a yield of 40 or 50% is enough. The problem is more the seasonal storage, to be able to store a large amount of energy for a long time, it is necessary to have in front of you at least 500 or 700 hours of production, and thus there is not much thing to store energy so long low cost in large quantities ... apart from liquid nitrogen, only the cold can be stored for a long time without significant loss. while the heat is lost by radiation. so for the caverns the problem is that there are none everywhere and it's complicated.
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Ahmed » 30/12/18, 18:57

Otherwise, all that remains is to apply the recipe for Sarah Palin"Drill, baby, drill! : Mrgreen:
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by A.D. 44 » 31/12/18, 06:54

Eric Dupont wrote:... only cold can be stored for long periods without significant loss. while the heat is lost by radiation ...


??? !!! Oh good ??? A delta equivalent the cold keeps better (for example a difference of -150 ° K or + 150 ° K for an ambient temperature of 0 ° c)?!?!?!

So ... if I cut my congelo, its indoor temperature will not move (or very little) because it's cold? I will try this today ... it will save energy.

Thank you so much!
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by phil53 » 31/12/18, 07:11

What seems interesting to me in this system is to pump the water at the same time as we inject air. This decreases the pressure needed to inject the air, the efficiency must be better by pumping water than by compressing air.
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Re: Energiestro (storing energy in concrete)




by Remundo » 31/12/18, 09:05

AD 44 wrote:
Eric Dupont wrote:... only cold can be stored for long periods without significant loss. while the heat is lost by radiation ...


??? !!! Oh good ??? A delta equivalent the cold keeps better (for example a difference of -150 ° K or + 150 ° K for an ambient temperature of 0 ° c)?!?!?!

So ... if I cut my congelo, its indoor temperature will not move (or very little) because it's cold? I will try this today ... it will save energy.

Thank you so much!

even if I do not understand all the obscurities of Eric Dupont,

on this point he is a little right.

Regarding losses by thermal conduction, it is indeed the DeltaT that makes the law, whether in the hot or cold.

As for the exchanges by radiation, they are proportional to T ^ 4 in Kelvin (T power 4), and it is better to be in small temperatures than large ones.

But we can anyway create an adiabatic enclosure of good quality if we put a little means: insulation, vacuum, reflective aluminum film ...
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