Solar Aero Tower: Aerothermal Power Station by Edgar Nazare

[Remundo]

A) local configuration around the bung, initial flow conditions. You can check this by changing the direction of the swirl "by hand".

I'm joining Highflyaddict.

The Coriolis forces that govern the rotation of the water in the bathtub when it is emptied are an absolute myth.

It is gravity and shape, initial conditions and a little viscosity that govern the direction of the vortex ...
The inertial forces of Coriolis, at the speed of water, are of the order of 1 / 100 of the forces of gravity.

Some also believe to draw energy from the terrestrial frame of reference in the Coriolis forces ... To their great despair, it is in "vector" Omega V, therefore the Coriolis forces do not work in the earthly frame of reference and only exist in the terrestrial frame of reference which is not Galilean ...

Funny links on Coriolis
http://www.charlatans.info/coriolis.shtml
http://tatoufaux.com/spip.php?article128

As for causing a tornado with a tower 300 m high, it is impossible.

A tornado feeds on a continuous supply of hot air at its base and a continuous supply of cold air at its top.

A non-concentrated solar source provides very little hot air. Even if this contribution is sufficient, the only cloud formation around the tower will cut off the solar radiation and therefore cut off the heating at the bottom.

Finally, tornadoes do not arise anywhere: you need the conjunction of cold air (generally streams from the Arctic) and hot air in colossal quantities (generally above seas with hot currents.

it has no chance of producing sustainable energy.

[Christophe]

I'm really on the ass for your skepticism Remundo! Generally you are quite open and curious about technology ... it looks like an inquisitor !!

A non-concentrated solar source provides very little hot air. Even if this contribution is sufficient, the only cloud formation around the tower will cut off the solar radiation and therefore cut off the heating at the bottom.

Uh ... Do not you think that the fact of concentrating in a chimney air heated over several ha or km² is not a form this concentration?

Finally, tornadoes do not arise anywhere: you need the conjunction of cold air (generally streams from the Arctic) and hot air in colossal quantities (generally above seas with hot currents.

I think you are focusing too much on the word "tornado" ... a vortex that looks like a tornado you can make one in a water bottle by remunerating it properly !!

it has no chance of producing sustainable energy.

Amen...

Speaking of a vortex, Lietseu just made me discover this:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... ower_Plant

It is a very low pressure vertical axis paddle wheel (even more than Francis turbines): here it is in rotation http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0lTsQcoSU

I guess the performance is not exceptional but it allows to exploit low falls ...

The TOP 100 site looks nice but a lot of "déjà vu" stuff or stuff that has been stammering for years (quasiturbine for example) ...

[highfly-addict]

You seem much stronger than me in aerodynamics (to be honest, I've never done any in class: just "a little" in fluid mechanics ...) ...

To tell the truth, I don't either, it's just an area that is vital for me to know at least a little.

So for the "fast" calculation frankly I dry there ... advice to the fluid specialists: I am willing to assist but must help me there.

Remundo maybe?

ps: an overall conversion of 2,5 to 5% seems realistic, right?

Oh yes, surely! But a conversion of what? Total energy received or the differential artificially obtained with the environment?

[Elec]

I have the impression that the "geniuses" who came up with this idea in their design offices would do much better to stick their noses outside from time to time, just to not pass for incompetent morons ....

Elec, do you really believe in this kind of solution? ...?

I am not at all competent for these stories of strength of Coriolis. Sorry.

I read this on the site Atmosphere, Climate & Environment Information Program :

"The Coriolis force is a force which acts on any moving body in an independently rotating system (...) The Coriolis force acts only on large objects like masses of air moving over considerable distances. Small objects, for example seagoing boats, are too small to feel significant deviations in their direction due to the force of Coriolis. "
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/eae/french/atm ... Force.html

I do not know what is the size limit to start to feel this effect significantly. Underlying question: is the system that interests us above this limit?

As far as "classic" solar towers (without vortex) are concerned, the technology works very well. A very interesting idea would be to humidify the air (evaporation of sea water in the greenhouse) in order to decrease the height of the column.

Another very positive point of the system: the atmosphere becomes humid in the greenhouse and we can cultivate. This would be an improved version of the Sahara Water Project:

Sun and sea water - The desert converts into an Oasis / Sahara Forest project
http://www.electron-economy.org/article-22456849.html [photos inside;) ]

[highfly-addict]

I do not know what is the size limit to start to feel this effect significantly. Underlying question: is the system that interests us above this limit?

Clearly not, in fact a classic thunderstorm sucks low layer air over very large areas (several km²) and we do not observe any rotation of the cloud mass.

It is different for the super-cells and maybe the limit is there: a few tens of km in diameter at least.

[Christophe]

Leave the cogitations concrete, I found a lot of stuff !!

Remundo maybe?

Ah ah ah! No I think he voluntarily went OUT on this one !!

Oh yes, surely! But a conversion of what? Total energy received or the differential artificially obtained with the environment?

Ben 2.5% of overall balance: i.e. conversion of the heat received by the ground then transmitted to the air then to a turbine under greenhouse in electricity ...

1) Here are some figures on the Tour de Coustou but the reasoning details are missing: https://www.econologie.com/tour-solaire- ... -3497.html

2) I just found the prototype of the vortex solar tower which I was thinking above!

It was not on the forum but on a .pdf that's why I couldn't find it! https://www.econologie.com/tour-solaire- ... -3493.html

THE FRENCH AEROTHERMAL POWER PLANT PROJECT:

We have just learned that a coherent and serious research and development program for the French solar tower is finally launched by the private sector.

This is the program developed by the French company SUMATEL (1). The latter had been contacted by Professor Nazare who had been able, before his death in 1998, to outline it. The interest of this project has just been confirmed by the Canadian professor Louis M. MICHAUD who agreed to collaborate with the company SUMATEL.

After the very promising trials that started in Savoie in 1997 on a 6-meter high model (see photo attached), a new series of tests is planned for 2006 on the site
of the Bouillante power station in Guadeloupe where a new 60 m model is to be built. These new tests, which will benefit from the caloric intake of a geothermal well, will in particular allow the engineers' forecasts to be refined.

Indeed, according to the latest SUMATEL studies, the electric power of a 300 m high vortex tower would only be 180 to 310 MW while, under the same conditions (delta t
between 30 and 50 ° C) Professor Nazare predicted a power of 200 to 600 MW.

But, even in the low hypothesis, the project seems interesting, both economically (possibility of making hydrogen at low prices in all tropical countries), and ecologically (particularly clean energy and possibility of cause rain in arid areas). We can also think that, like tropical cyclones, but on a smaller scale, the multiplication in the world of aerothermal power plants, and the gradual replacement of polluting plants, would have a climate regulating effect due to the
mixing of air and would fight against global warming.

Francois MAUGIS

(1) SUMATEL company, allée les Perce-neiges 73540 LA BATHIE (France)
Tel: 0479310320 - E-mail: sumatel@wanadoo.fr
For any additional information, contact:
Francois MAUGIS
Association Energy Environment
7 Fountain Road
60300 MONTLOGNON (France)
Tel: 0627126914
E-mail : energy.environment@wanadoo.fr
or consult our WEB page: http://assee.free.fr

PJ: Photo of the 6 m model of the vortex tower made in 1997 by the company SUMATEL in Savoie.

a) Here we have names and contacts if we want to know more! It would be interesting to obtain precise figures and info on this prototype! Pkoi not try to find out if it still exists and visit it?

b) It was not in Reunion but in Savoy !! I probably made the confusion because of the 2006 project in Guadeloupe (to see what it gave!):

c) So Remundo: no chance you said? Even if the figures are revised downwards, it is still very positive and very promising ...

d) So another project that I put on the list of projects to be explored by the Econologie association? Or you read that right ... it happens!

[Elec]

I'm looking at the PDF ... Super interesting all these things ...

[highfly-addict]

Indeed, as long as we keep the air flow captive in a tower, we can get energy from it (Mini height 100m according to Coustou, it's grated for your garden Christophe! ).

But as Coustou also says:

This tornado is completely controlled. The conversion of most of its energy into electrical energy (combination of turbines / alternators) weakens it and does not allow it to survive leaving the air column at the top of the tower.

So no 20000 m high vortex, etc.

And I still don't believe in the influence of Coriolis' strength, especially inside a narrow tower. Look at the satellite photos, the storms do not turn on themselves.

Interesting idea anyway to recover energy from an air temperature differential, especially if we associate the thing with crops in greenhouses (but the yield would drop, physics physics is annoying sometimes!).

I would also be curious about the weather consequences downwind of an industrial-sized power plant. I suspect more rain and lower sunshine on average, .. It's the neighbors who will be happy !!!

[Elec]

Interesting idea anyway to recover energy from an air temperature differential, especially if we associate the thing with crops in greenhouses (but the yield would drop, physics physics is annoying sometimes!).

No, with humid hot air, the electric production would increase compared to a situation with dry hot air. For physical reasons. ;)

The fact of using hot air saturated with water vapor (instead of simply hot air in current prototypes) makes it possible to increase the density gradient in the tower and therefore offers the possibility of resorting to a lower tower for the same convective effect. If the reduction in the height of the tower is proportional to the molar ratios of humid hot air / dry hot air (18:29), we go from a tower of 1000m to a tower of 600m.

The air at the top of the tower is relatively "cold" and therefore "dense".
The dry hot air coming from the greenhouse is less dense, it rises (Archimedes).
The warm humid air is even less dense, it tends to rise even more.

NB - Of course, if we want to take advantage of the humid atmosphere to cultivate, we will not put crops that occupy the entire volume of the greenhouse and that would hinder the movement of air masses, but low crops.

[Remundo]

c) So Remundo: no chance you said? Even if the figures are revised downwards, it is still very positive and very promising ...

Good guys, we should also know what we are talking about ...

I read at the beginning of the subject that energy would be produced under the effect of a mini twister (cyclones) rising to several km altitude (According to "Michaud", 6000 m ...)

it can't work.

If we're talking about air convection towers, it can work, but I'll show you how lousy the output is.

We will therefore take the best project with well inflated figures.

A chimney 990 m high (3281 feet) composite materials
A collector 7 km in diameter, or 38,5 km2 of glass and plastic.
Temperature of the heated air in the chimney: 70 ° C.
Air speed in the chimney: 15 m / s (54 km / h).
32 impellers.
Power produced: 200 megawatts.
This project may seem incredible, but its designers say it is realistic. The feasibility studies by the German engineering office SBP, based in Stuttgart, are coming to an end. This solar tower would therefore be built by the EnviroMission company in the desert of New South Wales, in the county of Wentsworth. If funding is found, construction should begin before 2010.

SBP is Schlaich Bergmann and Parner
It is above all an excellent company of public works and construction of colossal structures. It only asks to build, the energy or financial performance of the installation is not its priority. This is what the Wiki editor did not catch.

However, you will look at SPB's solar realizations at concentration, they are remarkable.

Well, that takes us away from the subject ...

So we say a collector of 38,5 km² ...

Suppose that we only cover half in cylindroparabolic ... 19,25 km².

1km² = 1 m²

Insolated at 1000 W / m², there will be 19 W thermal

With 20% efficiency, this gives 3850 MW electric.

that's for sure: relentless.

Faced with this, what does the convection tower offer us? 200 MW or 20 times less.

There are also uncertainties about civil engineering ... We have never done a tower of 990 m high, and especially what worries me is how it will withstand a storm.

Why bother to make air currents between a hot source and a cold source so thermally close? The performance can only be deplorable ...

at 200 MW, seen the 19 MW incident, the output is ... 1%

The slightest photovoltaic panel is already 10 times better

And to conclude ... Think PHRSD