Unprofitable photovoltaic

[laurent_caen]

Hello

I just did a little study of photovoltaic solar shades on a school and the result is quite eloquent:

photovoltaic solar shading facade southeast

total available area 50 m2
southeast exposure 45 °
tilt 25 °
total power 8 kWp


cost incl. VAT 73000 €
help from regional council 18311 €
Counter purchase EDF 300 €
Network connection 550 €
final cost 55539 €

average redemption price 0,63 € / kWh
annual irradiation 50000 kWh
overall performance 0,11
annual production 5500 kWh
annual profit 3465 €

Inverter replacement every 10 years 14600 €
-> Maintenance / year 1460 € / year

TRI 27,7 years !!!!

purchase obligation period 20 years
balance sheet on 20 years -15439 €

Basically, the PV financially it is really not interesting at all.

Note that the aid for communities are not the same as for individuals, they are 30% of the cost of the installation HT (it should soon change, to follow ...).

What do you think of all this? Do you have any comments on this study or its conclusions?

NB: Sorry for the presentation but I imported it from an excel board and I do not really know how to put it back in the form of a table ...

[Christophe]

Oh thanks for confirming what we think since 1 moment by a very practical example.

So I think that the good of your reasoning and we already said it a few months ago here ...the PV should be banned for the massive production of electricity. It is currently profitable only with subsidies (so the taxes of your neighbors or taxes on oil) is only the business of PV sellers, including some oil companies (BP, Total ...)

The subsidy system can only work to a certain extent, after that it will collapse ...unless the consumer agrees to pay its electricity roughly 10 times more expensive because it is of PV origin ... Do not dream...

Le thermodynamic solar has a much better return and financial return.

It is therefore necessary to make PV at home as a last resort, when you are already independent with respect to heating and hot water.

Do not install PV before solar thermal.

In the same subject: https://www.econologie.com/belgique-solw ... -3617.html

ps: your initial cost still seems quite high (20 000 € too much). Surely an effect of subsidies ... we get fat, we overcharge ...

[Obelix]

Hello,

Yes like christophe I think the material was largely "overpriced".
At present we find solar panel at about 6 Euros Watt / peak installed especially for quantities like 8 KWc.
I think the project must take the form of a public market which "motivates" the consulted to take comfortable margins ....
For my part I have the W / ca 5.74 Euros TTC via purchasing group (70 W / c panel) and with additional discount if order> 5000 euros

Obelix

[laurent_caen]

Yes, it's true that the cost is quite high, I had expected early on 55000 €; then I called a famous manufacturer and it was he who provided me this price. I was pretty surprised too ...

In fact, I have the impression (and this is what I have been told several times by the way) that the manufacturers are making a crazy margin and adapting to the increases in subsidies granted by the state. On this subject, I came across a doc on the internet from 2003 (no way to find it sorry) predicting that in 2008, the price of photovoltaics would be divided by 2 compared to 2003 because of the "boom" of this market. It is clear that if the market is indeed growing, prices have not really been divided by 2 !!! Personally, I find the prices charged quite scandalous, it reminds me a little of the prices charged by mobile telephone operators who, despite a booming market, were not lowering but increasing their prices ... Could there also be an agreement on prices for photovoltaic manufacturers ...?

[Christophe]

Yes, it's true that the cost is quite high, I had expected early on 55000 €; then I called a famous manufacturer and it was he who provided me this price. I was pretty surprised too ...

In this case you have to play fair, ask him how much oil is in his panel and pkoi it is the triple of the rates announced by Obelix?

In other words: ask him if they couple their prices on the barrels of crude or subsidies ...

These are smart guys who grease under a background of ecology ... that's what the PV vendors are now ... Escrologie...period.

The State and Edf (and the tankers) are of course accomplices ...

ps: would you still have your 2003 doc? It deserves a little more detailed analysis

[georges100]

funny we come back to what I already said
subsidies increase the price and do not create development ...

[laurent_caen]

In this case you have to play fair, ask him how much oil is in his panel and pkoi it is the triple of the rates announced by Obelix?

In other words: ask him if they couple their prices on the barrels of crude or subsidies ...

Uh ... presented like that, I already know their answer! They will not tell me that they are thieves! In my opinion, they will pretend that the cost of raw materials has increased, etc., etc.

These are smart guys who grease under a background of ecology ... that's what the PV vendors are now ... Escrologie...period.

Without a doubt...

The State and Edf (and the tankers) are of course accomplices ...

No, there is no need to fall into paranoia either: the state has nothing to gain from granting ever stronger subsidies and EDF does not buy electricity from individuals at a loss by philanthropy.

ps: would you still have your 2003 doc? It deserves a little more detailed analysis

I just put my hand on it!
Here is the link : https://intranet.insa-toulouse.fr/view/ ... taique.ppt
and for the evolution of the costs, it is on page 34 and 35.

[Christophe]

subsidies increase the price and do not create development ...

That's why I treat the state (and Edf) accomplices ...

No, there is no need to fall into paranoia: the state has nothing to gain from granting ever stronger subsidies

If, the state has to win in the subsidy policy:

1) control the market's growth (subsidies are always subject to budget quotas, only the most expensive gear is subsidized ... etc)

2) pull prices up to control the market

Is self-construction not subsidized? The important thing is what is saved as raw energy? This the state cares little (or on the contrary it is concerned to maintain the wreck that the French state, according to the media at least, afloat ...)

and EDF does not buy electricity from individuals at a loss by philanthropy.

No, but for his image it's good.

And French individuals who have a contract with Edf must be counted on the fingers of the hand (go add the toes) ....

Otherwise, the excuse of the cost of energy and raw materials is too beautiful and easy, the next one that tells me that answers: stop taking me for a con. I will argue that PV manufactured in Asia valley 30% less since 2 years with the fall of dollars ... because they are paid in $ ...

And we saw that it was pipo concerant food (price of bread on the rise with wheat but not down when the price of wheat falls ... of course)

ps: thanks for the doc i will put in the DL.

[I Citro]

I like to make comparisons, price per kilo, m3 ...
but also to the technological content:
For example the complexity of a gas boiler compared to a PV ...

It's also true for joinery:
compare an aluminum entry door to 8 or 10000 €, mass, raw materials, technological content, advertising, payroll to produce it ... to a car (logan, for example) first comparable price and 10 times heavier.

[Former Oceano]

In any case, the state recovers what it gives with one hand by aids with the other hand in the form of VAT. So if prices are high, the amount recovered via VAT is even more important ...