DESERTEC: energy exploitation of deserts

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DESERTEC: energy exploitation of deserts




by Christophe » 15/05/08, 11:16

The Desertec project is probably the most ambitious solar thermal (or thermodynamic solar) project.

I uploaded the document and created this topic to talk about the project DESERTEC Solar Concentration:

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Download summary: https://www.econologie.com/telechargeme ... -desertec/

You will find other information and projects here: solar-photovoltaic / Central-and-motor-solar-themis-almeria-Stirling-solo-t4105.html
Last edited by Christophe the 10 / 04 / 11, 10: 31, 3 edited once.
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by Ahmed » 16/05/08, 19:55

Everyone is now well aware that the senseless waste of natural resources has reached its limits. This fact was long overshadowed by the extent of these same resources and because a very small part of humanity participated.
A massive substitution of the Saharan solar energy with conventional energy sources would be desirable in terms of both sustainability and direct environmental impact. However, this solution, although "the least worse" in my eyes, does not solve the essential.
If we take the internal point of view of the productivist system that is ours (a system that I consider essentially utopian), energy being only one of the limiting factors, any resolution of this problem will not to make all others more acute.
If the limitation of growth is so urgent, it is not only because of the physical limits of the biosphere, but because it is in itself beneficial.
Since there is hardly any experience in this field, let's reason to the contrary.
The myth of growth since its beginnings feeds the collective imagination of a dream of abundance for all. For the poor, when the size of the cake increases, it becomes easier to expect more crumbs.
For those who are the actors and beneficiaries of growth, there is the rewarding and infantile illusion of a total rational mastery of the world.
However, the "miracles" of industrialization have always been limited to the very restricted circle of northern countries. The recent extension to countries in the south, such as the Asian "little tigers", India or China should not be misled: only a very small part of the population is concerned. Everywhere economic growth goes hand in hand with increasing pauperization. It would be naïve to believe that a little more growth would remedy what is the consequence of growth.
It is time to understand that this system is not extensible, neither in time nor in space.
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by Remundo » 16/05/08, 20:24

It's great Christophe to talk about Desertec!

I am pro-desertec, but I let people discuss for the moment ...

In English : www.desertec.org
The curious can also go to my site PHRSD section and / or "storyboard and News".

Beyond the technical aspects, there is much to be said about geopolitical, agricultural and social ... as Ahmed began to talk about it with his very personal point of view.

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by Remundo » 17/05/08, 23:15

Just for the sake of getting back up the subject : Cheesy:

Look:
- Christophe's links
- also www.desertec.org
and also
- http://sycomoreen.free.fr/syco_francais ... oelec.html

and meditate : Idea:
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by louphil » 18/05/08, 10:52

Indeed, these deserts, otherwise unlike the Tuaregs or other nomadic populations, are real and unfathomable with clean energy ... But what would be the impact on local populations of such farms?
Would the local populations become the future inhabitants of the ghettos of the future cities built on the oases of which they are the guardians? Because you must not dream !!! These plants will be located at the places where we can feed and water the labor allocated to their management and maintenance ... (... I know Remundo, solar exploitation will allow agriculture in the desert, but it will probably not be done at first, and the local people will not necessarily be easily led to abandonment, their habits, their habits and customs, even if it would be desirable? ...:? )
I am far from being against (it is even the opposite ...), but we must take into account this aspect too of the human problem. This is not because a large majority could benefit from such a manna, it will sacrifice a minority and its cultural wealth ...

This human problem is quite marginal compared to the issues of the energetic problem, but I sincerely believe that it must be taken into account. Maybe it is already treated on the site in link, but I confess to have it only flew over ...
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by Remundo » 18/05/08, 11:14

Hi Louphil,

Glad to read you here!

Covering a few tenths of a% desert will not prevent the Tuaregs from continuing to live there from oasis to oasis without changing their habits, if that is their desire ...

And as you say, all this is only marginal in front of the huge energy, ecological, geopolitical and social stakes that await the Man in the decades to come ... now and not tomorrow that decisions must be made.

In terms of manpower, power plants require very little (practically nothing for their maintenance), and even for their construction, in comparison with a dam or worse, a nuclear power plant.

As you point out, "this bottomless energy well" will allow revolutions hardly conceivable at present by the massive pumping and desalination of seawater, in turn allowing prosperous agricultural applications in semi-arid zones, a much like what we see in the Middle East with the irrigation of rivers such as the Nile or the Euphrates.

With such tools, the local people will really have the means to raise their standard of living to a level comparable to that of the Westerners, solving the painful immigration problems of which we currently only see the beginnings already revealing a total waste. and insoluble ethnic tensions ...

So, you see, I do not think this is about sacrificing the local population and its cultural wealth (basically immigration), I think it's precisely the opposite : Idea:
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by martien007 » 19/05/08, 00:24

Good idea this Desertec with all the comments already made BUT:

there would be gigantic quantities of oil and gas under the Mediterranean at 6000 meters deep because millions of years ago this sea dried up due to the obstruction of the Strait of Gibraltar following tectonic movements (c is proven by geologists).

By drying up for hundreds of thousands of years, a huge layer of salt has formed ..... and under this salt would be hydrocarbons; they will be certain by 5 years ago, only a Japanese ship can go to explore at such depth under the sea.

I heard that in a radio show, I forgot where, but maybe we can find the info on the internet? this is where (read the whole article):
http://www.lemonde.fr/sciences-et-envir ... r=RSS-3244

An international program could make it possible to mobilize the Japanese sounding vessel Chikyu, the only one capable of drilling wells 5 km to 7 km deep under the 2,5 km of water in the Mediterranean. It is equipped with a "riser", a kind of sleeve which surrounds the drill string intended to perforate the seabed, and which is already used by the oil industry: the pressure variations are better controlled, which makes it possible to dig deep wells, even in unstable areas.

The idea would be to drill to reach the oceanic crust. The cores obtained would make it possible to know more about the possible presence of oil; and to have details on the impact of the Messinian crisis on fauna and flora, of which we know little, except that it must have been extremely destructive.


With this oil + the one that is under the ice of the Arctic soon melted + that of Antarctica (protected for the moment, but who knows tomorrow that in they will fight to have some more of what remains ..), it would be nice if the peak oil was rejected and good ideas of alternative energy on a large scale type Desertec, with?
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by Remundo » 19/05/08, 09:20

Hi Martien007,

We know that there are still huge reserves of oil, but in general they are difficult to exploit and highly polluting ...

Currently, it is Canada's oil sands, where 1 is a barrel of oil to extract 2, not to mention the huge pollution of the hydrocarbon rivers. Hot water is needed to flush the hydrocarbons. In short, a nonsense economic and ecological even if the excessive price of oil supports the sector recently.

Coming soon, it will be the North Pole, where Russian nuclear breakers will have to turn to the extreme limit of their capacity.

And maybe tomorrow we will talk about the Mediterranean reserves, at 6 km deep. Again, the technique is not even developed and a rise of such a depth will be extremely energy intensive.

We also heard about going to scrape the methane hydrates to get gas ... at the risk of destabilizing them, not to mention the difficulty of going up 4000 m deep without losing the gas : Shock:

I do not know which satellite Saturn is thought to have methane lakes, maybe we should go there? : Lol:

It is very clear that the petomania is running out of steam, that the strong men of fossil petroleum, despite their insurance and their big profits as arrogant as they will be limited in time, are playing their last cards, are at the limits of their means of prospection and extraction.

Right now, without making too much noise : Idea: , they are all taking positions in renewable markets, especially solar (like Total ...).

I do not give 20 or 30 years to see it decline very significantly the fossil fuel industry on the economic plan.

Not to mention environmental issues ...

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by martien007 » 19/05/08, 11:53

At this very moment, without making too much noise, they are all taking positions in renewable markets, especially solar (like Total ...).

I do not give 20 or 30 years to see it decline very significantly the fossil fuel industry on the economic level.

Not to mention environmental issues ...


I hope so, but I'm pretty skeptical when I see the oil companies exploit the Alaska shales, they're ready to go further in the challenges and I see them extracting the oil well from the bottom of the Mediterranean. ....We'll see.

The positions on the renewables markets of the oil companies are minimal, I can see it in the stock exchange sites, it's peanuts, just "advertising" to make believe that they are investing in the renewable.

I may be pessimistic, but there are + in + large fuel-consuming vehicles in France, among others Hummer coming from the USA.

Nothing shows a drop in oil consumption because the reduction in consumption of modern vehicles is largely offset by the number of vehicles circulating ... and I am not talking about trucks ("stupid" transport between south-north and east- west in Europe).

We could go on like this for a long time.

NB: I hear on France Culture that in the USA the construction and operating cost of prisons is included in the GDP !!!! (nothing to do with the current subject ===> see PIB subject).
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by Mesh » 19/05/08, 13:54

Nothing shows a drop in oil consumption because the reduction in consumption of modern vehicles is largely offset by the number of vehicles circulating ... and I am not talking about trucks ("stupid" transport between south-north and east- west in Europe).


The only way to reduce consumption is to touch the wallet ... increase prices again and again. And that even if our famous purchasing power is affected.
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