inter seasonal storage solar thermal

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
Aid, counseling, fixtures and examples of achievements ...
dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 14/12/15, 14:49

[Flytox Moderation]
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Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!
The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php

dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 14/12/15, 15:17

lilian07 has a very great experience and very good methods:
not two risks at a time, which one must be aware of in the action while reflecting,
to stay alive !!

So he has good experience and good methods to succeed his very difficult project, because very innovative, with immense potential, able to save the planet and to change all the current methods:
solar geothermics on old house !!



lilian07 wrote:Yes I confirm attention with the wind turbines, I tested his gear a lot 10 years ago now ... I had self built from A to Z a three-sided 4m in diameter, 12m high and you have to pay attention to a lot of things at the same time .... do not try to multiply the risks ..... first risk the electric shock, 2eme moving elements and last height .... you have to take precautions for each risk and never associate 2 ....
It is sometimes very boring and we tend to cut corners ...
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Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
lilian07
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by lilian07 » 14/12/15, 18:24

I refined a few parameters.
I projected the effect of the inclination of the sensors, the effect of the multiplication of the sensors and the cost of realization with physical constants of the generic earth.

The type of storage is a vertical storage by drilling as Darke landing (no 2m between drilling)

The approximation can vary in my opinion by a factor 2 (the actual cost being of course based on the choice of the sensor and its actual yield .... moreover the influence of the earth can make drilling more or less expensive at the margin)

Image

After some simulations I think that the storage is preponderant in the system and in my case (earth if it is verified the extra cost is much less significant than the multiplication of the sensors).

In addition the storage allows if the performance of the storage is checked to exclude the hazards of the winter weather (intermittence temperatures, ....) and eventually any other form of heating in double because we realize that even with sensor 300 m2 there is always a probability of missing at the worst moment ....
In case (simulated) it takes 340 m2 panel to be 100% standalone without storage but this simulation would not withstand some past winters ....
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 15/12/15, 22:04

lilian07 is asked to check all his personal messages (2)because, having seen Obamot and others, constantly posting sterile misinterpretations or obsessions (with my censored precise answers), I do not post any more on these forums, like before !!

We will progress by personal messages on precise calculations useful and quite simple.
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Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
Kenny-k
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by Kenny-k » 15/12/15, 22:06

good riddance
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 16/12/15, 14:22

See my detailed answer in your personal messages.

dedeleco wrote:lilian07 is asked to check all his personal messages (2)because, having seen Obamot and others, constantly posting sterile misinterpretations or obsessions (with my censored precise answers), I do not post any more on these forums, like before !!

We will progress by personal messages on precise calculations useful and quite simple.
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
lilian07
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by lilian07 » 29/12/15, 13:28

Hello,
Today I did tests on the earth.
I made a carotage diameter 45mm to 3m depth.
I measure a density of 1600 kg / m3 (dry land).
This soil is very compact, remains cylindrical after having hot carrot. It could be used to make walls only by compacting it between banches ....

I then realized a diffusivity test. I took a carrot 20mm high (diameter 45mm, this small carrot weighs 160g however dry ...)
I then dipped at its end (on the surface of the core circle in the center) a temperature probe of 8mm thick. the other end being placed on a heated electric plate.
So I measured the transfer of heat from the hotplate to the probe. taking into account the height of the probe so I still have 12mm ground height.
I realized 3 tests:
1er: 1 min 30s
2nd: 3 min
3eme: 2 min 10 seconds

What gives me after calculating a diffsivity of 1,1 10-6 m² / s which is almost similar to clay soil 1 10-6 m² / s

In addition I continued the measurements to evaluate the front of heat. The temperature increases to 5 minutes 10s while I warmed the heater to 2 minutes 10s after the test.

I specify that I only check the time for which the temperature seen by the probe increases.

I will take measurements of the type T ° = f (t) when I have my recorder in 15 days.
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lilian07
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by lilian07 » 11/01/16, 13:58

Hello,
I wish you my best wishes for 2016 and a lot of success in your companies ....
I'll come back to give you some news of the ambitious summer solar energy storage project for the winter.
After a lot of research, calculations and evaluation of residual capacities to obtain to achieve the project I make you a point of situation.
Project summary :
Storage of 20 000 kwh by solar thermal collector with a maximum of self construction. Building of 1870 (Architectural Protection Zone) interior insulation, 4 apartments located in southern Ardèche at 300 m altitude. Consumption of thermal energy to heat 60000 kwh with a geothermal surface heat pump (500 m² of horizontal sensors at 1m depth) and COP of around 3, 20000 Kwh power consumption.
The earth is clay and it seems that from 15m one falls on a marly layer.
With your different comments and discussions I converge on a project for the storage consisting of multiple drilling at max "-30m" and Darke Landing type (multitude of drilling 30 or 40 mesh around 2m to refine in numerical simulation program Python Anaconda) technical BTES

The transfer / destacking network will be made with U-shaped polyethylene or PVC pipe filled with water in the boreholes. The solar capture will be 45 ° ground (optimum average annual power at home) and for the time will have a surface of 50m2 to reach 100m2 in a second time (measure of storage / destocking).
The sensors (low cost <15 euros / m²) are being tested:
Reference sensor: Solar thermal collector of the recent used type plan.
Sensor N ° 1: Insulation 40mm PSE + double wall polycarbonate glass 6mm, black steel tray sensor traversed by a 13mm Polyethylene pipe in 5cm pitch strongly compressed (surface in 25mm peripheral contact) between the bottom of the sensor and the steel tray, aluminum foil in contact between the PE and the steel tray.
Multiple tests will be carried out with this type of sensor (variant 1A: neoprene adhesive between PE and alu / tray, variant 1B: larger compression, variant 1C: to see after measurement)
Sensor N ° 2: Replacement of the steel tray by corrugated bitumen sheet (same variant 2A, 2B, ... 2C)
Sensor N ° 3: Replacement of the steel tank by summer thermal solar collector type EPDM mat (no variant to be tested)
Sensor N ° 4: second hand purchase of flat thermal collector.
The objective of the sensor test is to evaluate the best cost / power compromise because the amount of panel is not negligible.
The whole will be entirely dedicated to heating "BTES / Solar Collector / horizontal geothermal sensor" coupled to the primary circuit (cold network) of the CAP according to the priority favorable to the optimum of energy recovered free (reduction of the operating time of the CAP).
The BTES / solar collector / will also be coupled to the low temperature floor heating circuit (35 °) according to priorities.
I did a manual auger drilling test of 80mm. Impossible to fit easily into my land, the latter has too much stone (basalt size ranging from 1cm to 40cm)
I made a trench at -4m of 60cm width to evaluate the amount of stone. Up to at least 4m there is about 10% of stone in volume so much too much for simple manual drilling.
Temperature measurement at -4m in December (13.5 °) earth sampling sample (50mm coring)
Measurement of diffusivity (dry earth) by hotplate: 1.1 10-6 m / s² (close to the clay at 1 so we are not far) but as this parameter is important, I realize other measures currently with recording thermocouples.
Density: 1.6 Tons / m3 (without stone) Basalt 2.3 T / m3.
Currently I am looking at the drilling techniques to realize a hydraulic drill on excavator with matte IPN. I stopped on the technique MFT (hammer bottom of hole) and rod of boreholes which is for me easier to set up with a BRH (hydraulic rock breaker) or hydraulic hammer (of drill) and an air compressor / water to evacuate debris on the surface. All this equipment will be purchased second hand (MFT, Hydraulic Hammer and BRH). I hope I can make a frame / mat in IPN by arc welding and use the shovel to feed the hammer hoping that I can go down to -20m.
I realize that there is a lot of area to master and I understand the difficulty of the whole project rather hazardous in terms of results. I am aiming for a target of 10 at 20% of calories returned on 20000 Kwh (break-even / risk for me).
I am also looking at the parallel mini drill 50 CV (100m / 110mm diameter) used for around 4000 euros. If someone has opinions (on drilling and sensors) I'm interested.
I also want to say that if you have the courage to read this post, the solutions chosen are not mine, it is a convergence of ideas (of experiences) more or less commented and detailed which allowed me to to reach this choice. I also know from experience that this choice can be modified as long as the last doubt is not raised (evaluated).
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 11/01/16, 14:06

In such a project, it is better - from the start indeed - to start with certainties rather than doubts! ...

For purely illustrative purposes: personal, I think that 2m between the boreholes is too much, there are too many unknowns to lift if you want to reach this optimum!

Please note: the boreholes must be switched on! (all interconnected with each other, and not only serve as a "storage well") It is not a static and almost annual storage site like at -350m where you would have the guarantee of a minimum temperature of 24 * C at the end of the season ... (if contribution by thermodynamic solar panels: calculated and sufficient).

For the rest I prefer not to comment, if you think it's right and you have listened / managed all the recommendations: so much the better.
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lilian07
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by lilian07 » 11/01/16, 17:02

Reasonably raising all the doubts about the project is complex and calls for a lot of knowledge (and a lot of time we all miss) but accepting a little blur of war should be a memorable experience ...

For drilling I'm starting to see the contours of the problem and I think drilling beyond 100m for a self-builder is very complex even with used pro drills.

Obviously, if I have to do far too much drilling (data evaluated by numerical simulation), I will reevaluate with the means of the edge one by one the type of storage chosen.
Today there are reasonably 4 types of inter-seasonal storage, they are not all accessible to the auto manufacturer (equipped at least) and for now the only one that I can reach and the type BTES see the WTS (Water tank storage).

Image

Obviously I think that a deep drilling (23 °) is not to be overlooked if it is feasible and "rechargeable", in this regard I saw on sale a mast on a carrier (excavator crawler) 25 Tonnes not very expensive, I think we should be able to drill deep with this type of old equipment.
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