inter seasonal storage solar thermal

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 11/12/15, 14:29

The practical realization has an infinity of possible possibilities, provided that one respects the proven scientific physical bases :
optimal T-regulated slow water circulation which transports heat elsewhere,
thermal insulation below, still air, UV greenhouse film at big bubbles cheap, or other more rigid alveoli!
cut off strong losses by thermal convection or wind ( huge loss ) on top by film or glass resistant to UV and letting as much light as possible.
if possible insulate better above, like double or triple glazing or UV greenhouse film at big bubbles cheap, or other more rigid alveoli!

So I propose to test in winter, a simplistic preliminary version, to measure, of the pipe type between two greenhouse films with large bubbles (even packaging that is not UV resistant, less than a month), or polystyrene plate underneath and film above .
Test in the Ardèche sun in winter by measuring nearly T inside and outside and also T in water, the real DT, (3 measurements once the steady state is established by also measuring the thermal constants by recording as a function of time if possible) according to various water flows also measured even roughly over time to fill a bottle or glass !!

The air very still on 1cm (maximum possible for double glazing to block thermal convection) gives a loss of about 3W / m2 ° C (1cm of air with 0,026W / m ° C) and the same by thermal convection without wind without protective film and weak DT (laminar boundary layer of about 1cm without wind which decreases quickly, if wind or too strong thermal convection, to a little more than mm).
I indicate this, because we then obtain the right orders of magnitude without very complex simulation, often unverifiable on the hidden hypotheses !!

So we will have the real extractable power depending on T and also the time of day in the sun (at least an idea).
This is essential for securing surfaces and storage time, size required.

After, the final realization can take its time and various forms more or less expensive and solid.

Avoiding the usual high-performance solutions, pretty, but of small surface, because expensive, while very inexpensive, rudimentary but of very large surface can be much better, especially for low T.
Very visible on apper-solaire.org
See the figure of the returns according to basic DT to understand its physics and the why, to avoid errors:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/?Faq

A good choice for a simple large surface:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20toiture/
Rest in peace !
It did not fall from its roof, but it is better to tie up to a roof or a tree, which I do !!

Finally, be wary of statements without precise evidence, without detailed calculations, and precise measurements on the conditions, such as:
"there is nothing better value for money"
which abound on the posts of the web and mislead with lots of people who copy without fully understanding !!

HDPE alone has no insulation so good in hot weather for swimming pools, and much more expensive than the same depending on a black pipe in the sun at 20 € per 100m.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 11/12/15, 14:53

I agree with Christophe that it is necessary to calculate carefully !!

But when he writes:
"An approximate calculation (including I spare you the details) of heat dissipation in earth, taking the worst case, clay (according to the principle that when a data is missing, we take the most unfavorable hypothesis) gives us an annual loss of more than 300MW (sided) after 5 years. "
without giving the details and assumptions of its calculation, ignoring thermal diffusion with its length most likely what changes everything , it is almost certain that it is totally misleading !!

I am very careful, as a scientist, not to give such global affirmations to believe with closed eyes, but to detail the hypotheses and verifiable calculations by all which allows to correct if error, in particular on the calculations or the hypotheses !!

We can be simple, exact in order of magnitude, while being verifiable and understandable !!

This scientific method of understanding oneself is essential to avoid mistakes in a new field;

Too few apply it.

"black mortar 4cm"has too much thermal inertia too long to heat up as I calculated above, verifiable by all.

A real pool buffer of 2000m3 in water is very expensive and moreover will be poorly insulated by thermal diffusion !!

Christophe seems, with the statement "Inter-season storage works well on a large scale with water" while still ignoring thermal diffusion, to come to the conclusion that dlsc.ca cannot work !!

The thermal diffusion that I have been explaining for 5 years seems almost impossible to assimilate, because certain reflexes must be suppressed !!
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Christophe68
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by Christophe68 » 11/12/15, 16:05

dedeleco wrote:without giving the details and assumptions of its calculation, ignoring the thermal diffusion with its length very probably which changes everything, it is almost certain that it is totally misleading !!

Well if I ignore the thermal diffusion, I invite you to correct me, scientifically, by giving Lilian a result figure as well as all the details that I spared him.

dedeleco wrote:Christophe seems, with the statement "Inter-season storage works well on a large scale with water" while still ignoring thermal diffusion, come to the conclusion that dlsc.ca cannot work !!

If you had taken the time to read my last post at least, you would have understood that I wrote exactly the opposite.

dedeleco wrote:The thermal diffusion that I have been explaining for 5 years seems almost impossible to assimilate, because certain reflexes must be suppressed !!


There is an element important concerning the thermal diffusion that you still do not seem to have assimilated (dsl for the criticism). It is that the thermal losses vs time are functions of the geometry. And that the losses proportional to the square root of time correspond only to a particular situation of a flat surface.
This rule is not valid in the case of a cylinder of small dimension compared to the diffusion distance, which leads to a critical minimum dimension, which the designers of dlsc understood very well, since they took care to stay on top. They have never tried to offer their solution on an individual scale (this is a physical reality, even if it annoys you a lot).
If you are not convinced, I invite you to plant a thermostatic soldering iron in the ground and to measure the consumption. You will see that it will not decrease according to the square root of time, but that it will tend towards a constant.

With that, I will stop my interventions on this thread there, before it turns into a troll, I will answer Lilian in mp if I need advice, within the limit of my available brain time. :)
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 11/12/15, 16:48

Staggering this !!
"And that the losses proportional to the square root of time correspond only to a particular situation of a flat surface."
is not true at all, and watch a basic misunderstanding of thermal diffusion, because diffusion in any dimension, persists in the square root of time with the dimensionless variable x ^ 2 / (Dt) or x / (rac (Dt) everywhere, which comes straight out of the dimensional analysis of the partial differential diffusion equation

read with the necessary care as well as the reference courses in diffusive non-stationary regime:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduction_thermique

In three dimensions, any heat diffusion solution is expressed as a function of this dimensionless variable x / (rac (2Dt), which makes it possible to test exactly on a reduced scale any complex geometry over one day instead of years for the same value of the dimensionless variable !!
The time t is reduced as the square of x ^ 2 to 3 dimensions as well as to a dim !!

I invite lilian07 to beware of assertions fast, which he cannot verify himself, because he will be misled by monumental and frightening errors of this type which abound and continue even after 5 years of repetition !!


What matters is the size L of the system in relation to the delta diffusion length
L clearly greater than delta does not ensure too much decrease in mean T distributed over the volume (L + delta) ^ 3 after valid diffusion at 3dimension !!

If we put additional external drilling in this volume, we will recover all the thermal energy put at the start, but at a lower temperature like L ^ 3 / [(L + delta) ^ 3] approximately (exact for a sphere)
Useful for PAC !!

Raz the bowl of repeating !!

Because of this the earth is still very hot 4,5 billion years later !!
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lilian07
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by lilian07 » 11/12/15, 16:56

I will answer Christophe68 for his work. I have more and more the impression that the calculations lead us to multiply the solutions (as I had noticed with the choice of paths ... and that we are missing measures because precisely this is precisely the goal of calculations to reduce the number of possibilities (or to demonstrate the feasibility) before launching the realization ....

Carrying out 2000 m3 of excavation in my type of soil with my type of machine at the best of the year (spring) 30 days (8 hours / days) in the machine it is a colossal hole impossible to fit into the area of ​​profitability on 4 homes.
If I add to that the self-construction and the cost of the very attractive design of the floating sensor we are beyond reason ...
In addition, I think that a volume of water of this size would be very difficult to maintain in condition over time ....

Thank you again for the precise analysis which, however, leads to the disposal of the earth repository on my scale ...

I insist that we must continue in the search for the ideal sensor but above all to continue and refine our research with concrete parameters otherwise we risk making science more problematic than the problem when it is precisely there to serve us. tool ... just like my excavator .....

As soon as I have a moment, I will compare 4 types of sensors to simply manufacture and which may be able to agree on the choice of the best for my case ....
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by lilian07 » 11/12/15, 17:13

I reassure dedelco that I take a lot of step back on everything .... and that it is important to demonstrate and question everything, the risk also being to put entropy .....
For the moment there is a lot of doubt to lift but it advances and it is essential .... I confirm again that we need everyone because it is good sometimes to question ... I put myself in the lead ...
I am sure that we will see more clearly soon ....
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 11/12/15, 17:26

On this occasion I approve of Dedeleco.
You just have to bury a plastic tub of hot water, put an insulation on it, put a temperature sensor in it and note after reading every 15 minutes, how long it will take to reach temperature. with the earth that encompasses it.
After that we can always try to play clown to treat others as trolls Image

Christophe68 wrote:
I still put a diagram for info.
Image

Never seen such idiocy in this forum, this is the bottom of the maelstrom!

What use are approximations, if it is to get out of concepts with eraser.

Image
Last edited by Obamot the 11 / 12 / 15, 17: 34, 1 edited once.
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plasmanu
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by plasmanu » 11/12/15, 17:34

Let's see what christophe has to say.
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Last edited by plasmanu the 11 / 12 / 15, 17: 36, 1 edited once.
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 11/12/15, 17:36

Well, anyone with an indoor heated swimming pool, therefore better buried than his sketch, will understand that it is impossible.

I don't even feel upset : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
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plasmanu
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by plasmanu » 11/12/15, 17:38

Excuse my accusation.
A thousand forgiveness Obnibus : Mrgreen:
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