inter seasonal storage solar thermal

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
Aid, counseling, fixtures and examples of achievements ...
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 14:24

plasmanu wrote:eh ... DD please in 2 words
even you can manage to reread yourself I think.


Before making a real small heat storage model from day to night in earth with pipes is a real simulation !!

A mass stove underground does this a bit !!

The physics of a mass stove is identical, thermal capacity, diffusivity which fixes the dimensions and thicknesses with the diffusion length, to that of the inter-season storage !!

In test make a mass stove with solar heat, day for night !!
Last edited by dedeleco the 09 / 12 / 15, 14: 58, 1 edited once.
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!
The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
User avatar
plasmanu
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2847
Registration: 21/11/04, 06:05
Location: The 07170 Lavilledieu viaduct
x 180




by plasmanu » 09/12/15, 14:26

please :P
0 x
"Not to see Evil, not to hear Evil, not to speak Evil" 3 little monkeys Mizaru
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 14:26

Image


The cows will be a little hot on the legs instead of being cold with the cap !!
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
User avatar
plasmanu
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2847
Registration: 21/11/04, 06:05
Location: The 07170 Lavilledieu viaduct
x 180




by plasmanu » 09/12/15, 14:56

So, let's see what the Swiss will answer in 2 words at the very least.
0 x
"Not to see Evil, not to hear Evil, not to speak Evil" 3 little monkeys Mizaru
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28795
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5583




by Obamot » 09/12/15, 15:19

:| :? : Lol: :D : Cheesy: hey, what did i tell you.

Ask Dede concrete and practical questions he runs away ...

As soon as it becomes a little too technical he denies ...

So attack others out of simple spite.

Not leaving the slightest respite.

To continue his fuss.

It's not pretty-pretty ...

Well, well ... on the contrary bentonite is great because it requires relatively little in this case. Dede activated Google to find this new word for him, the pages targeted the oil company, proof that he didn't understand anything.

So I'm going to ask him a very simple question, why bentonite, in the two cases for which it is mainly used? Within the framework that he knows and that he posted above. As we do not find the answer on the internet on one of its 2 properties, I expect confident that it will not find the answer: Môssieur "I-know-everything-the-others-are-des-brèles" : Cheesy:

It's only one question, no need to quibble about something else. :?: :P and no answer in 107 years, thank you! ^^
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 16:20

The subject has nothing to do with bentonite at all on this post trolled by the insomnia obsessions of O bas mot !!
And O bas mot seems to have irritated skin problems that make it insomniac to get on the buttocks and detoxify with bentonite !!
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
Christophe68
I learn econologic
I learn econologic
posts: 29
Registration: 27/06/15, 12:55
Location: Alsace




by Christophe68 » 09/12/15, 18:34

dedeleco wrote:It is necessary to locate the storage below, to recover with the CAP the weak heat flow coming up from the storage, which anyway goes back up and is lost a meter higher barely hotter in winter than the cold made by the cap!

It all depends on the project we want to achieve.
If we want to do better than gaining a half point of COP, we must separate the two structures and isolate the top of the vertical drilling network which can then increase in temperature and be used directly without the heat pump.
The heat pump then becomes a rescue tool to support the installation at the end of the season if necessary. But this is a more ambitious project, so it all depends on the specifications. And in this project, the surface insulation is an essential.
0 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
Location: Use
x 56




by lilian07 » 09/12/15, 20:54

Christophe68, this is precisely what prevents me from sleeping at the moment and it is precisely at this stage of research in the crossroads project.

Either I consider that my central well project under the CAP collection area can overcome insulation and benefit from absorbing all the calories lost ..... or I separate the variables and I consider that storage isolated can become sufficient to achieve 100% autonomy.

I do not think that a calculation can get us out of the impasse (if there are expert masters it is now that we must manifest or be silent forever ....) and when in doubt I suppose that 'we must separate the variables and therefore separate the places. to help with the decision I will say:
1) The existing system has been in operation for 7 years
2) the tip of the central well is reproducible elsewhere
3) The measurements of soil and test can be can help to choose better.
4) the solution under the CAP and already an experimental concept in an experiment which remains strongly constrained.

The choice is therefore to know what we can gain on the calories lost if we stay under the catchment (0.5 point of heat pump
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 20:59

"And in this project, surface insulation is essential"

is no more essential than below and on the sides, if the connecting pipes are well insulated only at the top.

Diffusion at the top over a length greater than diffusion delta, blocks losses more than thinner insulation by conventional insulation with still air over the long term, because in the long term, the square root of time always becomes slower than a straight line with a constant slope !! fundamental fact that makes this type of storage possible, but difficult to understand, because it goes against the usual isolation reflexes !!

In still air the diffusivity is 20 compared to that of 1 and often less than 1 of soils.
Thus the diffusion in this type of air insulator goes much further, which explains why well insulated BBC houses often suffer from the heat wave by rapid diffusion of heat towards the interior, which one qualifies of phase shift, term very misleading, while the essential before, too forgotten, it is the attenuation of the oscillations on the length of diffusion!!.

We can quantify this for precise conditions, thicknesses, materials, durations !!
With a thick rammed earth, you can have the minimum losses and the longest square root of time !!

lilian07 has a heat pump and a beautiful 12T machine, and therefore it must be taken into account, store under these 500m2 free space available, let the heat pump benefit from the heat which will rise above by diffusion over months, of value almost unchanged by the 500m2 for the CAP in winter.

We can quantify orders of magnitude without big calculations, just understand the diffusivity !!

I invite you to make a small, short-term model like a solar mass stove, which allows you to test and measure everything !!

The slightly marly clay contains a few stones, however.

Image
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 22:13

lilian07 wrote:Christophe68, this is precisely what prevents me from sleeping at the moment and it is precisely at this stage of research in the crossroads project.

Either I consider that my central well project under the CAP collection zone can overcome insulation and benefit from absorbing all the calories lost ..... or I separate the variables and I consider that storage isolated can become sufficient to achieve 100% autonomy.

I do not think that a calculation can get us out of the impasse (if there are expert masters it is now that we must manifest or be silent forever ....) and when in doubt I suppose that 'we must separate the variables and therefore separate the places. to help with the decision I will say:
1) The existing system has been in operation for 7 years
2) the central well tip is reproducible elsewhere
3) The measurements of soil and test can be can help to choose better.
4) the solution under the CAP and already an experimental concept in an experiment which remains strongly constrained.

The choice is therefore to know what we can gain on the calories lost if we stay under the catchment (0.5 point of heat pump


The magnitude assessments are essential to get out of the blur !!
The clay seems a little marly, which makes it possible to search in tables for its properties.

One can measure by putting a heated pipe on a meter deep and a test thermometer at 20cm distance at 50cm depth to see the heat diffusion arrive !!
In short, two micro boreholes !!!
Finally by measuring the heat used by the tube we have an idea of ​​the thermal capacity and the diffusion.

There are lots of articles explaining this type of tests with lots of formulas, (especially for PAC) !!

The insulation on the top is pretty illusory in the long run, as I explained.
One can quantify with the precise conditions envisaged.

You have to know the COP of the CAP according to its manufacturer depending on the T of the soil and when it enters the heat pump, because the storage of summer heat at 60 ° C below can cause this T to rise to more than 25 ° C or even 30 ° C instead of close to zero!

We have already quantified in order of magnitude the needs of the heat pump, and on it a beautiful surface 500m2 of inexpensive rudimentary solar collectors gives a nice energy 500x500 = 250millekWh / year, !! and therefore even half if too rudimentary, but not expensive, we can still lose some over the CAP.

Actuellement everything that falls from the sun on these 500m2 is wasted (lost in heating the air which passes exactly) and therefore, it is better with cheap recover a max on the surface, that take a very small area with good yield very expensive m2, as we often see, and which also does not work well in winter without sun !!

This point is essential and conditions the rest to optimize.

The central well seems less fundamental to me, more a choice favored by the backhoe !!
Its center will be more overheated with the concentrated pipes whereas around it there is less volume of soil, but this center will be rapid response, because with short diffusion length between pipes and it can act as a rapid buffer.

By separating the places, we will always have the storage with losses from above, even if we believe isolating it with still air, which does not isolate well in the long term, which can be calculated simply, because t = ten million seconds is very long for losses proportional to time and its (square root of t) = 3162 is much smaller, length in addition, on which the heat went to store and where the cap will draw more !! !!

I repeat myself (for 5 years), but given the difficulty to assimilate, it's fundamental to see it in a simple way.

Christophe checks it with his 70m3 of solar hot storage under his house, too small and therefore linear losses in time or which heat too much volume of earth below compared to 70m3, on a delta of at least 3m !!

For this reason you need quite large and very inexpensive per m2 or m3 !!
earth just drilled, large volume, 10 m deep, 15 m2 and more, simplistic solar, even black stones, slates, bitumen, in the sun under film, with pipes at 20 € per 100m to recover this heat from summer heatwave which will end up underground !!
Even in winter 500m2 of solar collectors black plate of recovery, between two films with bubbles of greenhouse would give enough to heat at low T the house without PAC, the days of sun (10 times less power than in summer) !!
0 x
Thiazolinones neuro toxic to avoid them being everywhere, madness, killing at least ppm, bacteria and your neurons, which multiplies Alzheimer !!

The bees disappear pesticide, Roundup, and are killing us slowly. http://www.pollinis.org/petitions/petit ... noides.php

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 59 guests