inter seasonal storage solar thermal

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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 01:48

dedeleco wrote:
Huge quantities of fossil fuels are underground, more or less easy to recover, but capable of burning all the oxygen we breathe into CO2 and suffocating us !!
Christophe responds:
Yes, but fortunately only 0, x% are recoverable other than at the scraper. Smile
It's already too much, you will tell me

Coal there is much recoverable for centuries and spontaneously we risk just by heating a little more the bottom of the oceans, very few degrees C to release a gigantic amount of CH4 in explosive clathrates, like 56 million years ago that had heated the entire planet by more than 10 ° C, as a result of volcanoes heating the ocean floor to the separation of North America from Europe !!
After more than a million years of glaciation, at the bottom of the oceans there is a lot more CH4 that there are 56 million years without glaciations !!

No scraper is necessary, just a little more hot with CO2 !!

Even shale gas tankers have good scrapers that they perfect !!

Christophe writes:
"I don't understand your U problems."

The same as for a double flow exchanger where the inlet and outlet touch to make leaks between the hot and cold too close to each other, like the inlet and outlet of the tubes in the U! !
We recover less than what would be possible without this leak !!

It is complex and to be quantified according to flow rates and thermal diffusion by reading scientific studies !!
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 09/12/15, 03:24

dedeleco wrote:
Obamot wrote:unless you run out of bentonite then in the wells (I had already thought about it but I gave up because of the cost of the operation!)


More misunderstandings, blah-blah-blah-blah bentonite for extra heavy butcher

cool, Dedeleco learned a new word from BAT ^^

Indeed, heavy therefore good thermal conductor and big advantage, it is a clay-based mud therefore chemically very compatible with the environment (haven't you forgotten this detail Dédé supramax?) Therefore liquid, I had already spoken about it here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ami-appel- ... tml#201727

and here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ami-appel- ... tml#201758

(answer in the links: I let you cogitate a little ^^)

and again here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ami-appel- ... tml#201894

And Dede had not reacted ...
(now he's playing proudly, but I've never seen him refer to this material in this forum, I'm clearly the only one ...)

In short, Dédé is still in "the reaction"VS"emotion". Okay, no interest, too bad. Instead of wondering why I'm saying that ...
Christophe still gave a good idea, but it is not the humidification of the soil that must be done, it is very insufficient (nice calculations but small cerebellum ^^) ... Because it is an endless story ... And what we want is to be consistent in the result without treading too much.

In short, bentonite is essential in the construction of tunnels, the laying of certain pipes ... and as an additive to cement (more and more interesting) .... It is very popular in geothermal energy, for SGV (vertical geothermal probe) which takes the energy stored in the ground to send it to a heat pump.

To do this there are different methods:
- drilling on the water table (to see if there is one ...)
- you can drown the geothermal probe in a sort of conductive grout (precisely composed of ... bentonite).
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 09/12/15, 04:40

Ooops asleep,
I finish just before going to bed a little ^^
I'll do it Plasmamu way "folded weighed a few points":

dedeleco wrote:And wham, Obamot brings out his posts from more than 4 years ago and his dear EPFZ to which I had replied in detail [...]

A difficulty of the U-shaped round-trip drill pipe is that heat exchange poses the problem of cold water coming down, warming up, but going back to cool down in the vicinity of the cold water coming down (or the reverse reservoir heating, in earth), an inefficiency which imposes a some thermal insulation between arrival and return (isolated center tube)

And vlan, that's exactly what was needed, to demonstrate that if Dedeleco has some vague ideas on the principles, as soon as you dig into the details it's pretty gloubiboulga, completely dropped for certain "details" (for once c 'it is me who said raz-le-bol ^^) ... Too bad because the background is good and we like the Dédé ... well up to a point! He hee

So no, (and it was you who didn't read Dark Landing) Parts and accessories:

- the circuit of each section is 2,5 km (in this case), and precisely that it cools down to warm up always more is what we want to do if we do not have to do to a probe directly, so that the heat transfer fluid releases its "frigories" (if I can express myself like that) and collect calories. So over such a distance we don't care!

- we do not use the tubes-Dede-DIY-from-the-corner in hard discount but HDPE (High Density Polyethylene)

- the grout / bentonite is a sealing product (specially designed for geothermal energy). It is optimally designed to allow heat exchanges between the ground and the heat transfer liquid which passes through HDPE conduits. This grout is actually a bentonite cement (mixture: cement, sand, quartz + bentonite) so that it has a TC ≥ 2 W / mK, (salt. standard NF X10-970) in the case at hand (here it becomes hot-boiling).

- no idea of ​​everything you do in the BAT with Môssieur Dédé bentonite (as always in the following case) waterproofing resins ...

I am not saying at this stage that this is what must be done, I explain the relative incompetence of Dedeleco which does not stop tackling it wrongly and through (it is up to us to have a little fun, no. ..? ^^).

I'll let you think about the mode of application ^^ (because the Dédé will still find something to complain about, I don't want to leave you in disarray without his "gags" that will follow, bein woui, if we don't have fun not a little with glue: we are poorly paid here but what are we kidding ^^.)

Here I am going to advance on a few figures from my ladle assessments (just a fork to advance the schmilblick), if all goes well - but it is necessary to do a pre-feasibility study, because the needs for such a house are consistent, we walk on eggs - we could count on an annual COP of 3,5 to 6 (but I would say 4 to 4,5 to be careful, but real 4 all year round at least) of course, after a precise sizing given by the study. And I think it's worth paying 5 to get this info, because here we have Nickle Feet that improvise a little too quickly geothermal engineers, are brushes, roll their elbows: no but no joke ... : Cheesy:
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lilian07
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by lilian07 » 09/12/15, 09:39

Well it is moving, I realize that the subject is becoming more complex even if we have made a giant step.

Dede mentioned that Laplace allows to solve one-dimensional equations, it's already not bad because whatever the mathematical model none is capable of solving the solution of partial differential equations in 3D ... but we have a computer scientist at worst I can there is software for that already I think ....

To make the project a little more concrete:

The horizontal catchment area which could become the site of the storage well.
Image

The covered area
Image

the vision of the ground coat (it's not me on the photo ...)
Image

The machine
Image


I always look carefully at the possibility of obtaining a drill in case the project reaches an impasse.
When we have removed the doubts and gray areas I will take stock of the tools to hold.

Obamot you had mentioned another solution, I am crazy that you tell me about it ... don't worry dedicated will be indulgent .... for me all ideas are good to take (if it does not violate the principle universal constant and if they have the charm of simplicity .... and humility ... !!)

have a good day
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plasmanu
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by plasmanu » 09/12/15, 10:13

it's pretty by labas
the neighbor doesn't have a ride, I'm looking for a lamb, at my uncle's (organic producer) on the ardechois plateau, it's too far.
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lilian07
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by lilian07 » 09/12/15, 11:34

and not a small herbivore ...
There may be more appropriate posts for this type of subject !!
In the Ardèche .....
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by lilian07 » 09/12/15, 11:37

and not a small herbivore ...
There may be more appropriate posts for this type of subject !!
In the Ardèche .....
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Christophe68
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by Christophe68 » 09/12/15, 13:37

dedeleco wrote:Christophe writes:
"I don't understand your U problems."

The same as for a double flow exchanger where the inlet and outlet touch to make leaks between the hot and cold too close to each other, like the inlet and outlet of the tubes in the U! !
We recover less than what would be possible without this leak !!

It is complex and to be quantified according to flow rates and thermal diffusion by reading scientific studies !!

Ok, but I thought it was a proven technique. So for me it was a settled matter. With the spiral solution, there should be no leakage.

lilian07 wrote:Dede mentioned that Laplace allows to solve one-dimensional equations, it's already not bad because whatever the mathematical model none is capable of solving the solution of partial differential equations in 3D ... but we have a computer scientist at worst I can there is software for that already I think ....

There is no need for Laplace equations, just re-read my posts to find the solution. ;)
I don't know any specific software for that, but we use software based on the finite element method in the industry, which we can possibly divert for this use.
Only these software programs are often expensive (several thousand euros) and useless. Because we seek here to model a simple form, (a cylinder) solvable with simplified equations which will give the same result.
It must be understood that a simulator always regurgitates only what it is given to eat.
So it will have to be informed. It will ask you the depth of diffusion of the material. And if you don't give it what it needs, it will give you the wrong result. As damn good and as expensive as it is.

The first thing to do is to impose specifications, define a strategy, size the project, to know what we want and where we are going. This is what is a little lacking in this project, it is rather vague for me.

Then, and only this first step taken, and if the conclusion is favorable, we can move on to the feasibility test phase.
Field surveys and measurement of the depth of diffusion. Checking the seams of water. Study of the nature of the soil. Assessment of cost and working time.
Note that you can find a manual auger with an extension set of ten meters for a hundred euros on Ebay.

Then, and only this second step taken, and the conclusion is favorable, we can move on to the realization phase.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 09/12/15, 14:17

The real situation is clear and therefore it is necessary to adapt to this situation and to the means because the backhoe is a strong argument that changes choices while respecting simple fundamentals, and which "does not violate the principle of universal constants and if they have the charm of simplicity .... and humility ... !!)".

It is necessary to locate the storage below, to recover with the CAP the weak heat flow coming up from the storage, which anyway goes back up and is lost a meter higher barely hotter in winter than the cold made by the cap!
So Obamot is wrong to want to separate !!

Obamot is constantly coming out of misunderstandings to be dismantled and which are never correctly quantified.

"but HDPE (High Density Polyethylene)"
He ignores that this pipe which has stood in the summer sun full of UV in PACA and elsewhere for 17 years is HDPE like any commercial water pipe buried !!!
4bars will never be reached and ideal for efficient cheap solar collector !!
http://www.jardinet.fr/fr/p-tuyau-polye ... -p205.html
en insulating with greenhouse bubble film (UV essential ) [/ b] below and above:
http://www.jardinet.fr/fr/p-tuyau-polye ... p1075.html

If you want a beefier guy like the one who has been staying with me for over 40 years with peaks above 4Bars (20 Bars like the height of the hill behind me when the pressure regulation of my drinking water supplier failed, !!):
http://www.jardinet.fr/fr/p-tuyau-polye ... p1075.html
the efficient simple solar collector to isolate with this greenhouse film for good performance :
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... index.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post176956.html#176956

Bentonite is completely useless, except to complicate pleasure unnecessarily !!
Do not copy large projects without understanding the principles because it is doomed to failure given its astronomical price !!
Besides, these very expensive bad choices explain why this type of solar geothermal energy is extremely rare, ignored, in addition to the obstruction of the oil lobbies !!

Obamot is requested not to obstruct anymore by not reflecting enough in his insomnia and by being unable to encrypt correctly repeatedly!

Obamot says:
"after precise sizing given by the study. And I think it's worth paying 5 to have this info,"
, here is nonsense because all the pros in France completely ignore this type of solution, apart from the classic CAP of lilian07 (it already paid to a pro, because it works, unlike other scammed) and out of habit, they will understand nothing at all at the bases of dlsc.ca ( they never heard of ), like Obamot, who repeats unsuitable reflexes, without having assimilated basic physics, very poorly taught, because the rigor imposes a mathematical level BAC + 5 to 7 which drowns in equations, and that even at this level, we notice that some do not understand, if they are asked vicious questions with a problem that they have not been taught !! !!

Obamot before posting must read and understand everything about :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduction_thermique
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89qua ... la_chaleur
http://archive.numdam.org/ARCHIVE/ASENS ... _379_0.pdf
https://books.google.fr/books?id=TDQJAAAAIAAJ&hl=fr
190 years of mathematical research ,
which solve any complex situation by having a clear idea of ​​the assumptions and approximations used.
The pros at Obamot understand almost nothing!

Finally for a single U in the ground you have to read and assimilate this type of in-depth thesis among others to read also:
http://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/7432927.pdf
that I’m going to explore, because otherwise the incoming cold fluid cools the hot outgoing fluid !! (obvious common sense remark, like if after heating your buttocks when you get out of a fridge, in front of a radiant radiator, you go back to that fridge when you get out, concrete image that Obamot will perhaps understand !!

When you innovate something new never made, there are very few pros left, real scientists, whose published work must be read and understood!!

A scientist who understands must be able to explain simply and clearly !!
Last edited by dedeleco the 09 / 12 / 15, 14: 20, 1 edited once.
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plasmanu
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by plasmanu » 09/12/15, 14:18

eh ... DD please in 2 words
even you can manage to reread yourself I think.
Think of the others ... apart from picking up figs and dead wood in front of your house: this is the only simple trick that you have explained to me.
Last edited by plasmanu the 09 / 12 / 15, 14: 25, 1 edited once.
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