inter seasonal storage solar thermal

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
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elephant
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View elephant » 16/11/15, 12:57

I don't know if it is applicable but I remember the solution of the defunct company Econo SA de Gembloux led by José Maria de Laminne de Bex

They store the energy emitted from thermal solar panels under the building at around 15 ° C and recover it using a water-air heat pump

Unfortunately, difficult to do for an existing building.

Advantage: part of the losses takes place IN the building to be heated.
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elephant Supreme Honorary éconologue PCQ ..... I'm too cautious, not rich enough and too lazy to really save the CO2! http://www.caroloo.be
Christophe
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View Christophe » 16/11/15, 13:04

Disadvantage of a heat storage heat pump: large waste of electrical energy to pump calories ... and significant additional installation cost compared to passive storage ...
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lilian07
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View lilian07 » 16/11/15, 18:04

Ok I understand that my solution is out of reach. A little disappointed all the same.

I have a plan B in the hold: I had foreseen the case where the diffusivity of the earth was too great.
Here is my 2 nd plan: I remove a cube 4m side to 4m deep (64 m3 of earth, 1/2 day of excavation and embankment), I isolate on the 6 sides (styrodur, straw, EPDM ..) I specify that I leave a vacuum between the insulation and the ground. I practice an umbrella over my storage. The solar panels are above the ground storage of course.
I leave an access corridor on one side to make my temperature measurements. The normally I have to trap a maximum of calories.
The non-insulated balloon probe system remains relevant in the center of the imaginary cube to insert and restore calories.

Obamot tells me the plan with the drilling, I think this plan is more difficult because the costs become unreasonable but I do not give up the idea of ​​the hole matrix (I saw that a used 20m drilling machine is around 1500 euros to see depending on the amount of energy expected)
If I increase my COP by 1 it's already great because I save around 700 euros on my electric heat pump (alone to produce heat for all 4 apartments).

I am however starting to realize that the problem of deep storage is inseparable from the heat pump because the energies and the time difference in play do not allow high temperatures to be kept (my water / water heat pump and my colander house is ultimately a good experimental ground ).

I await your comments on solution B failing to fall back on that of Obamot but there I am only at the beginning of the analysis ...
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 16/11/15, 21:16

Hello ! : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

First of all I have to congratulate you (I'm complaining enough that it's rare enough in this forum hihihihih). Why, because you are one of the very few who listens to what is said to him, who eventually understands his mistakes and who then adapts his speech! What is more, with a technical approach that is far from bad. And who is nice, polite without taking the cabbage!

So I can only give a watchword to support you the best in this thread, with all those who pass by to give their opinion!
(that's it for the violins) Image And then concrete projects we really like it here, so ...

Well, I don't have much time, but I will try to give an opinion with a modest contribution "at best" ....

Christophe having already warned you about the PAC questions, I leave that aside (since you can read ahahah, I sink ...) so you don't need to drill deep to have an interesting COP ( first good news, but I could be wrong) and more, it can be cold duck but you could heat properly since less dependent on the environment, much less ...! So much for the first point.

Another point that I did not catch, you have a water-water cap, does that mean that you have a kèkpart water source?

For your project - and so that everything is clear, possible water supply etc ... and everything and everything you plan ... - it would be good if you made a nice sketch (first it helps to mental conceptualization of the project, you will discover new possibilities at the same time as it will allow you to correct any errors) because I have some doubts about your explanations!

What do we mean by "perfect insulation"? First of all hermeticity. If you put insulation, it will be everywhere (below, on the sides, above ...) Ditto if you add an air gap, it will have to be airtight otherwise you will lose a lot with convection , and close to the surface on 300mm it would be better to put expanded polystyrene (not LDV because of humidity, it is also necessary to do with the papercrete). In short, your design will have to provide for perfect air partitioning and perfect jointing of the insulation ... (The extruded EPS that I found stuck superbly well with polyurethane foam, and there is total airtightness ... )

I do not guarantee that you will have a result, but let's say that if you do this "for science" ^^ you might as well think about the finishes carefully, this is where the gains are the most significant next ... he hee

Little tip, you could make a greenhouse just above the storage area by phase shifting, so that at first it would give you additional "insulation", and if the experiment were to fail, at least it would be very useful for extend the planting season, because at least I am sure you will get a result and moreover everything will be guaranteed "frost-free" and in my humble opinion (there is already a thread in this forum, with greenhouse heated by a thermal pad it seems to me ...)

Other than that you don't give up on anything, do you? : Mrgreen:
Kind regards.


PS: at this price for a drill, there is not too much to hesitate I think! at -20m you could have a temperature of around 15 ° C stable all year round (in summer it can be used to cool down during heat waves ...) You could make a series of holes at 20m so you would have both systems on 2 floors - since anyway, when you have excavated you will have already descended to -6m - by drilling from your -6m you could then descend to -26m and also make a trench all the way down to -12m by making a ramp to lower your construction machine (in short, would you have a system a bit like nuclear fuel rods in a reactor ...? Drake Landing calls them "boreholes" >>> (if they speak French it would be worth calling them, even better if you speak English ...) And the floor above would extend the duration of your "stack", that's how I would see it, in a first idea ...)

But you would have to calculate everything, because it may be useless to do a lot of work for nothing, while an optimization of the solution can allow you to achieve the same result with less effort ...
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yves35
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View yves35 » 16/11/15, 22:32

Good evening,

you say this:
I'm not looking for the grail anywhere, just to test before building a passive house.


I have good news for you, you can forget the constraint of inter-seasonal storage:
http://sebasol.ch/realisations.aspx?id=1078&r=
and especially:
What Mr. Jaquier has just achieved with us is this:

THERE IS NO MORE NEED FOR SEASONAL STORAGE

Come on, we repeat, to be sure it fits

THERE IS NO MORE NEED FOR SEASONAL STORAGE

This is what self-builders and civil society are doing with us now, in 2015, alongside Aebischer and all the Shadoks in (our) universe who want to sell us binz which we do not need. And which you don't need either.



It is now packaged-weighed: from 1.01.14 to 31.12.14 Mr. Jaquier burned 334 kg of wood, or 0.71 (zero point seven to one) cubic meters of foyard in his 182m2 SRE building for 4 people.

It's cold in the back (energy sellers) right?


yves
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izentrop
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View izentrop » 17/11/15, 09:26

Hello,
lilian07 wrote:I will refocus the subject: inter seasonal 5000 Kwh buffer (1 / 3 my consumption)
Quick calculation:
Let us admit a super-insulated tank where in winter the water is still at 80 °.
Your heat pump at a reasonable COP from 10 °.
The exploitable Dt is 80-10 = 70 °.
The specific heat of water = 4185 Joule / ° C / kg
1 Wh = 3600d
1 liter of water can restore 4185 X 70/3600 = 81 Wh
So you need a tank of 5000000/81 = 62 m³
Not obvious that a waterproof insulation in bales of straw is sufficient.

It remains to calculate the area of ​​solar panels to provide this water at 80 °, taking into account the insulation losses.
Will you need a hell of a lot of truck radiators;)
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 17/11/15, 10:23

Thank you Izentrop, these are missing computational quantities Image

yves35 wrote:I have good news for you, you can forget the constraint of inter seasonal storage

hey hey, you don't seem to have fully understood what a house with the Minergie label is (that is to say passivated) which is excluded in this case: if you had not well grasped, "construction classified as an architectural heritage"(or something) and therefore impossible to touch the facade which means" niet "(ITE / passivation impossible)!
Last edited by Obamot the 17 / 11 / 15, 10: 30, 1 edited once.
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Gaston
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View Gaston » 17/11/15, 10:28

yves35 wrote:I have good news for you, you can forget the constraint of inter seasonal storage

Ok with Obamot, your news is indeed very good 8)
However, it is not applicable for 99% of the existing housing stock.
The renewal of this park takes almost a century :|
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lilian07
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View lilian07 » 17/11/15, 11:41

Hello,
Thank you for his compliments but I understand the enthusiasts on whom reason sometimes prevails over the hard laws of mathematics… it is rather a quality I find because it is with these enthusiasts that the great discoveries are made… we are not there of course.
It makes Yves35's post dream, the building is a little gem of inventiveness and perfection ... I am currently in an existing sniff building and have to deal with ...
It does, however, resemble the complexity of a rocket stage. Well done, but one thing is certain, it is that construction of this kind cannot be mastered by our real estate builders and even less by all the trades and subcontractors of the building who already have trouble talking and coordinate actions between them to start building a flat roof.
Obamot provided me with what to take back GoogleSketchup and what to redirect the project and some ideas that I remember and that I like (construction of a greenhouse above the storage as well as the principle of making a drilling matrix at the same time than storage.
Before going to the 3D definition of the project I will make a small succinct sketch (if I manage to insert it!) I did not put the connections they must be able to be very widely criticized and optimized.
Izentrop made me a small succinct calculation to demonstrate that a storage of 64 m3 seems close to the objective (without the losses which is cold in the back because the real problem of the experiment is this famous diffusivity)
I will perhaps orient myself on the ground to store because perhaps simpler and less constraining and more in the spirit of simplicity (indeed the calorific power is less but I can always pass to a cube of 5m of side (principle of oversizing) which starts to make a big cube (125m3).
The project already a little optimized: (see sketch)
An excavation of a cube of earth 4m by 4m side (64m3) possible matrix drilling (x hole 20 to 30m depending on the capacity of the drill) under this storage.
Storage (Earth or Water) carried out with waterproof EDPM. In the center a source of calorie insertion and recovery (I think of a DHW tank without insulation that we find at zero cost)
The EPDM tarpaulin will be surrounded by a 100m2 straw bale on the 6 sides of the cubes then a pallet turn (on the 6 sides) to create a technical vacuum between the earth and the bales.
Finally we make either a second row of bundle insulation or tarpaulin to backfill with earth on the 6 faces before finishing covering the surface completely. I have a waterproof plastic film which will largely extend beyond the storage assembly to make an umbrella. underground… I fill the last few centimeters of earth and make an access slice towards the center of the cube for pipe and measure. This is without optimization the overall project which remains reasonable in terms of feasibility and cost.

Image[/ Img]
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lilian07
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View lilian07 » 17/11/15, 11:58

Just for information I had already mentioned his arguments at the beginning .... I am in 95% of the cases of the real estate park and ZPPAUP prevents to start with what is fundamental at the source (insulation). Besides, Gaston's reflection shows that it takes a century to regenerate our park if the authorities are willing to evolve ... because the urban planning texts are far very far from being concerned with giving a modern orientation to what should be the house of the future .... that reminds me of another positive point in the project, the process which consists in burying is partially excluded from the texts of town planning and escapes noticeably from COS which is more for our old park. ..After it is true that it takes a bit of garden but it is already not bad ....
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