Solar Questionnaire - I need your help!

Forum solar photovoltaic PV and solar electricity generation from direct radiation solar energy.
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Did67
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by Did67 » 24/08/13, 15:17

BobFuck wrote:
A subsidy almost always has this effect, since if it is necessary to subsidize, it is because it does not work ...


a) it is not that it does not work; it is still, for the moment, more expensive than producing from nuclear!

So if at a given moment, we want to "boost" the market, therefore the demand for panels, therefore the research and the investments which will lead to a fall in the price of the material and, we hope, one day to a convergence of production costs ...

[I'm not saying that everything was done well; I say that doing nothing will not lead - except in a Chinese-style economy - to making an alternative take off! The sudden exit from the bubble, following a badly controlled tariff, is the very example of "imperfections" due to bad decisions / bad calculations, etc ... But, for me, it does not invalidate the system; nor does a tire which burst because incorrectly inflated invalidate the quality of the principle of the tire in relation to the wheel rimmed on carts!]

b) so we do nothing ????

[and I hear from here all say: "the government is doing nothing to get out of nuclear power"! I am of course talking about those who are sensitive to this issue - I think the majority are for! - On the contrary of that, I find that the system that I describe above - tax toute consumption, therefore nuclear electricity - to subsidize decreasing way renewable production - is no fool! Except to leave it to EdF and also Suez and a few others now! And we know what they are going to do ... Good, but I am not going to open an umpteenth debate "does liberalism naturally lead to the top of the good for society" or not ???]
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by chatelot16 » 24/08/13, 16:06

nuclear, photovoltaic, and completely distorted comparison

the state paid a lot of money at the time when nuclear was the national priority, and there is always a lot of things in nuclear that are assumed by the state without being adequately funded by the electricity sold: security among others

for the pahotovoltaic you have to pay everything, including the incidental costs due to complicated regulations

we must do politics to demand the possibility of injection into the network without spawning for everyone, to encourage the installation of small photovoltaics without going into heavy debt

to put it simply, you don't need a purchase price higher than the sale price: which requires complicated controls to avoid fraud

the right ecological decision would be to buy at the price equal to the sales price: it would give some profitability to the cheapest photovoltaic panels, and would encourage the industry to sell high-performance equipment, which everyone could install free of charge.

we put the panel on the roof ... we plug the thing into an outlet like an electric radiator and it turns

while waiting all that can be done, it is a weak power, lower than what one consumes in genrela, and which makes a simple economy on its invoice, with a small riste to produce more than one consumes by large sun and give EDF a gift when we have a counter that does not work upside down

that would be perhaps a serious criterion of an installer who proposes the heavy solution of 3kW: is it able to provide what it takes for 200W or 500W?
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by sen-no-sen » 24/08/13, 16:29

Did67 wrote:[and I hear from here all say: "the government does nothing to get out of nuclear power"!


Of course the government is doing nothing to get out of nuclear power!
It is only a post Fukushima campaign promise, the government's will, on the contrary, is to perpetuate nuclear power and develop generation 4, The ASTRID demonstrator is proof of this.



it is not that it does not work; it is still, for the moment, more expensive than producing from nuclear!


It should be remembered that nuclear power is highly subsidized by our taxes, we actually pay twice our electricity bill, all of which adds up to the public "astro-debt".

chatelot16 wrote:

and there is always a lot of things in nuclear that are assumed by the state without being properly funded by the electricity sold: security among others


I allow myself a correction if you want: this is the French taxpayer which bears the cost of nuclear power, nuance!

On the other hand, whatever it may be, I do not think that PV is a technology that in the short term, allow us to get out of nuclear power.
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by Did67 » 24/08/13, 17:27

Okay, so what do we do? We discuss, we discuss, and we do nothing! "It should..." ; "the government this ...", "EdF this ..."

I described my situation, my "desire": what do I do ??????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????

If I understand you correctly, I am a philosopher first ... I would like the world to be as I would like it to be soft and meanwhile I criticize ... I criticize blablabla the government (in which I only imitate the government who blablabla ...) ...

Just a point: agree with the last sentence, of course. PV does not allow going out of nuclear power; it is a misnomer on my part. It can just contribute, with many other measures of the "negawatt" type, not to create new plants and to close the most fragile ... But there again, for me, not a sufficient reason for do nothing ! Or buy a more beautiful car, bigger, more 4x4 ...

I therefore specify the wording of my "desire":

- I wish, privately [professionally, engaged in projects such as 600 m² of PV, an anaerobic digestion / cogeneration station of 180 soon 240 kWelectric; conversion to organic farming], contribute a little bit to reduce the share of nuclear power in France [this is the exact wording]

- and what do I do ????

[If I listen to you, I get depressed and I do nothing and I blame the government for doing nothing and I cry everywhere that it is the fault of EdF - who does not care as long as I pay the bill ...

I do of course a little on purpose to make you aware of this very French mania - in particular, but not only, on econology - of "breaking", of "questioning", of "regretting this ...", of " criticize that ... "in short to discover that the world is not perfect! To deduce from this that it is urgent to do nothing, that would be to compromise in a world that is not perfect, and therefore to engage in an action which is open to criticism because ... not perfect. At over 60, having traveled quite a bit, looked at death between four eyes, I passed the age of a late adolescent crisis!]

But concretely, on August 22, 2013, being able to mobilize the 12 or 13 euros, what do I do ??? I want concrete answers with feasible ideas from August 000, 23.

In the diagnosis of what is done, which I gave above, I forgot to point out the conversion to a healthier food and also more respectful of the natural cycles (fruits / vegetables of season, in particular those of my garden " more than organic "; no green beans at Christmas) and less loaded with fossil CO² (" more apples, less bananas "!). Less red meat (almost banished - except a steak of beef mahousse for my 60 years !!!).

So yeah, in my mind, a 3kWp roof was one of the serious projects that "sailed" through my head. And the lack of trust in providers is one of the major obstacles, as I witnessed with sincerity at the very beginning! With perhaps the jump to an EV for the shuttles ...

[I have other "projects", apart from my carbon footprint, I can assure you. So you don't confuse me more than that.]
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by chatelot16 » 24/08/13, 18:20

there is no 36 solution

to make 3kW peak under current rules, have it done entirely by a real professional, and pay the price

to do either: limit yourself to a few hundred W

to be even 3kW you have to become professional

I have some of the necessary skills, but no financial means

others have financial means, but some do not have the skills, others no longer have the physical form for big jobs, others have certain skills that I do not have

my solution is to create an original company with the least fixed costs possible ... which will start without an employee, only with associates to pool the means, and with the quality of company allowing to take advantage of the aid that exists

it does not prevent me from criticizing the current aid, but criticizing the aid does not remove the obstacle which I also criticize: so let's organize ourselves to take advantage of the aid, and let's keep in good conscience by saying that it only compensates for the obstacles

then if we have to do politics to change the situation, at what level should we do it? who still believes in democracy?

the policy is not already very effective to make the general law, but for the industry it lets make the standards by the big company: to have a weight in this bazaar it is necessary to be a company which becomes rather big

it is a huge job to keep abreast of all the regulations: doing it for a single project is not profitable: how to make the most of the time spent understanding everything? share everything with other interested person

put everything on the internet? , we are already a certain number to share what we can, but we cannot share as much as we want: there are too many things that can only be shared in a limited setting

my future SAS with variable capital will be the right framework to share everything and really move forward

a while ago I thought of doing things with an association, but no that is not enough, an association does not have the qualities it takes to really build
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by sen-no-sen » 24/08/13, 18:20

Did67 wrote:Okay, so what do we do? We discuss, we discuss, and we do nothing! "It should..." ; "the government this ...", "EdF this ..."


Did, I knew I was going to annoy, that is not my goal, but it is customary to say that PV is ecological, when it is not the most effective solution, far from it !
The purpose of a forum is precisely to exchange info on the subject, right?
So we have no right to criticize the government's suicidal measures?
Did you vote for a new breeder in the Rhône valley? No, neither did I.
My goal is not to make sterile criticism, but to demystify a minimum.
For my part I went from 400km / week by car to ... 0 / km / month, I banished meat for a long time from my diet, I heat myself with wood, I have no TV, I will not see the latest American films in cinema and I never go abroad by plane (nor anywhere else for that matter (and never an exotic destination!) : Mrgreen:
So it's not just philosophy!

If I understand you correctly, I philosophize first ... I would like the world to be as I would like it to be me and meanwhile I criticize ... I criticize blablabla the government (what I do not just imitate the government who blablabla ...) ...


Sorry, but the criticism I made on the PV currently available is absolutely not philosophy, but actually very concrete!

To give an idea, a PV panel is something between 50 to 160 grams of CO2 per electric kWh taking into account the "life cycle" of the panels. (Depending on their place of manufacture, Switzerland or China, it varies from single to triple!).
Many people have bought Chinese PV which is not even amortized taking into account its life cycle (the amount of CO2 emitted at the source - either of coal -, will not be amortized by the panels on the 20 / 30 years lifespan!)


But concretely, on August 22, 2013, being able to mobilize the 12 or 13 euros, what do I do ??? I want concrete answers with feasible ideas from August 000, 23.


Do you already have a solar thermal installation?
Is the insulation of your home maximum?
Do you have space on your property (if applicable)?



With perhaps a jump in the jump to an EV for the shuttles ...


Your home / work distance?
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by chatelot16 » 24/08/13, 19:02

to do it on August 23, it's already too late, and to allow installation of 3KW as economically as possible, it will be a bit later than tomorrow

to make 300W with wild injection on the network, it is feasible right away, but by buying the material directly in China, because no French seller can take the responsibility to sell stuff whose legality is in doubt

it is therefore anti protectionism: a French manufacturer cannot sell without making huge costs to find the right way to sell in good standing ... the Chinese sell anything by ebay

I am capable of doing simple design stuff, easy to repair ... but useless as long as this problem is not resolved
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by Philippe Schutt » 24/08/13, 19:07

Here, it is said in the last post of sen-no-sen:
insulating your house


This is a point where payback will most likely be faster.

For the profitability of an EV, I don't know, it depends on the km / day. But I don't think accusing him of being nuclear is relevant if you charge the batteries during off-peak hours. Indeed at these times the European consumption is so low that one can wonder if the excess production is not simply grounded. It should therefore be checked whether battery charges during off-peak hours would cause additional consumption of fissile products.
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by sen-no-sen » 24/08/13, 19:17

Philippe Schutt wrote:.

(...) Indeed at these times the European consumption is so low that one can wonder if the excess production is not simply grounded.


It is:
-Either sold at low prices in the neighboring country.
-Either switch to reliefs for turbination via STEP
- Either ... "burn", that is to say a nice electric arc!

It is for this reason that most French cities are so bright (my village is a real Christmas tree at night!), Given that the activity of a power plant is linked to a very significant phenomenon of inertia, It is hardly possible to slow down the fission process, so EDF sells the current at a ridiculous price to the big cities!

Now if we reduced spending at night in favor of recharging EVs, we could easily run a good part of the national park for free!
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by Did67 » 24/08/13, 20:30

Some elements of response to your suggestions:

a) CESI: I have (since 2002)

b) insulation of the house:

- good (it's monomur with "bisotherm" = blocks of pozzolan + over "red cedar" cladding); I consume around 100 kWh / m².year for heating and additional DHW at 340 m, in Alsace - we are far from the thermal wreck!

- in addition, I heat with pellets with a condensing boiler / heated floors on both floors, the bill remains "reasonable" (around 1 euros / year for nearly 000 m²), so little "nuke" (electricity consumed by the boiler / circulator); the replacement of the class B circulator by the new generation of permanent magnet circulators is planned; and little CO² of fossil origin (since this year, my pellets have traveled 160 km by truck!)

- suddenly, over-isolate: 1) worries about the siding to be removed and which will split, these are rough siding - therefore not possible to put it back; 2) will have an IRR even much worse than PV (because my heating is not expensive enough! And gaining a little more will have a cost but a limited efficiency - compared to a thermal wreck) or I recall that it was from there we were gone! It would be better than this PV project!

c) "wild" injection; let's say that ethically, I am against illegal actions, except "non-violent conscientious objection" in real cases of conscience; the injection is not, in my judgment, such a case of conscience ...

I am very little "Robin Hood": I have seen in Africa what the absence of a state or the absence of rules gives. The rich are even richer, and live very, very well in their palaces. They have it all. The poor are hungry and dying ...

c) @sen-no-sen

We have the right to criticize.

But we must also "do".

Meaningless action is nothing but agitation. But criticism without action is only intellectual masturbation.

I "overplayed" my reaction a little, but with sincerity. I find it to be one of the plagues of forums French. No sooner does someone outline an option that some fall on him, on the grounds that it is open to criticism, without proposing an alternative or an improvement. So the person gives up ... I don't. In fine, I will do what I want.

I am probably less "decreasing" than you.

But probably more than others. Than the average.

So yes, I (rarely) take the plane for my "pleasure" (before, it was for work). This year for the 17th time in ten years.

Yes, I like to see a good movie. At the movie theater.

I have a few good books delivered on a subject that interests me by Amazon (there, gardening without working the soil and without pesticides / treatments) ... This is of course open to criticism when you know Amazon methods. But it can also be the FNAC, which does not change much!

I like certain dishes and I have not banished the meat. It is open to criticism, of course. I love chocolate, which necessarily comes from far away.

We were without TV. Then one (cathodic / recovery). Then without. Then again one (flat screen and low consumption / purchased). There are shows that make me dream and I need them when I am wracked by a week of shit (anti-stress). And there is some interesting news in the middle of the media circus.

So I am not for a brutal decrease that would do without "almost all modernity". I have of course a computer and a box - the proof. I'm placing - no, I'm trying to place! - the slider at level where I think the impact could still be bearable for the earth, while using some "elements of progress".

I was very, very decreasing when I lived in the depths of the African bush. The well from which I drank the water, I had dug it.

Today, older, a little "reached" (physically), I need a little comfort ... Let's also say, I can afford it, I have worked for, I hardly have any scruples ... except the ecological footprint of it all.

So placing the cursor in a less radical way than you (but also constrained in part - I cannot go back from my village to my home by bike; I thought of the electric bike but I suffer from the cold from September / October to March -April; and as soon as it is hot / 28 °, I am swimming at the first effort = go back up from my garden, which is on a slope! I have half my heart capacity left enough to live, but I have very poor temperature regulation; I can not digest and think intensely, etc ...), I do not find anything in your proposals, except the criticism!

I don't have the impression that you are a "green kmehr", but know that criticism on "too radical" bases (which the majority rejects or which requires too much effort from the majority)) has effects against -productive. Not feeling capable of it, the majority give up.

I am convinced that it is more effective to offer a "little effort" of 10%, with 80% of people following (if explained to them), than an effort of 80% with almost no one following! Groupuscule syndrome. So attractive. And at the same time completely sterile.

My major contradiction, in my eyes, is my electricity consumption nuclear.

Hence the fact of this project that I have been developing here for a few posts.

I think I must annoy our friend who asked the initial question and by correction, I should be silent or go on another thread?

d) VE

It is still a project-project, still very "vague". Something that I am.

Yes, you are right, provided that the recharge is scheduled for certain off-peak hours (full night), this may be compatible. I find that it is even more coherent with a PV project and recharging on PV hours! Without being a Robin Hood ...

There remains the whole debate on lithium.

There is also the exorbitant price. And there, unlike a PV project, it is consumption. At the end, nothing remains! But indeed, I do not exclude!

Thank you for these exchanges.
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