Self-consumption project with Finistère batteries

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Corre
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Self-consumption project with Finistère batteries




by Corre » 30/11/18, 13:50

Hello everybody

I live in Finistère, near Brest. I consulted several professionals to get quotes for a self-powered solar installation with batteries.
One of the installers offers me an installation with the batteries of Solarwatt but I do not wish to follow up because in case of power failure the battery is not able to take the relay.
I also contacted an inverter manufacturer called Imeon Energy, which is based in Brest. Their IMEON 3.6 product interests me a lot and they offered to put me in touch with a local installer for a complete quote because they do not offer the installation and only manufacture the inverter.
I would have liked to know if some of you have an opinion on the Imeon material: https://imeon-energy.com/onduleur-solaire-hybride/

Thank you in advance for your advice.
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ENERC
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by ENERC » 02/12/18, 20:01

Hello,

Go on the forum photovoltaic (http://forum-photovoltaique.fr) to have your quotes checked.
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Corre
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by Corre » 03/12/18, 11:22

Hello Enerc,

Thanks for taking time to respond to me. For the moment, I'm not yet studying the quotes but rather the analysis of systems available on the market.
For the inverter part, I wish:
A system that can manage the solar and the battery / allowing to have electricity during mains interruptions.
I know a lot of people on the forum that you quote are against the use of batteries because of their cost but my will is other than a simple return on investment.
I would like some advice on the Imeon UPSs mentioned in my first post, and which lithium batteries are the most appropriate in this list:
https://imeon-energy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/list-of-lithium-batteries-compatibility-IMEON-ENERGY.pdf

Thank you again for your answer.
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thibr
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by thibr » 03/12/18, 20:37

... a lot of people on the forum that you quote are against the use of batteries ...
when the network is available : Mrgreen:
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Corre
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by Corre » 04/12/18, 17:14

Hello Thibr,

I do not really understand your answer. Once again, I made it clear that my motivation is that I want a battery installation.
So I have questions about the choice of inverters for battery management. I don't want to debate "for or against batteries".

That's why I do not want to discuss the forum photovoltaic because every discussion about batteries revolves around "for or against" and the questions initially asked very rarely find answers.

Would anyone have some answers to my questions?
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ENERC
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by ENERC » 04/12/18, 19:29

Hello Corre,

If you went on the forum photovoltaic, you are therefore informed of frequent scams. Good point. Do not take any company that calls and especially not those who call themselves EDF partner. This is the typical imprint of eco-offenders.

From an ecology point of view, CO2 emissions, pollution, extraction of minerals, etc ... putting batteries is a nonsense today. It will not be the case in 10-20 years where we will use batteries everywhere to manage the intermittency (car batteries, at home, etc ...).

Except to be in an isolated zone without access to the network, putting batteries is justified only by an attitude of distrust compared to the all-nuclear policy of the State and its armed arm Enedis (EDF) which poses technical constraints of Foolish connection to slow down the inevitable.
Putting batteries is an act of revolt and / or activism. And the more we ask, the more likely we are to influence the decisions of the state towards a real acceptance of self-consumption (real, not the current speech false ass).

Once in the action of revolt and militancy, there are some technical constraints on the Lithium:
- the capacity must not be discharged more than once: if the battery is 2 kWh, the maximum power must not exceed 2000 W. In other words, the battery can not be discharged in one hour.
- it's the same for the load. Whether you charge with solar or from the network (in off-peak hours for example), you should charge less than 2000W this battery.
It is therefore necessary to have an inverter whose charging and discharging power is adapted to the capacity of the battery.
Otherwise, the battery may overheat, catch on fire or degrade quickly.

There are two approaches:
- or a small-scale self-consumption to enter the matrix of self-consumers and protect its freezer (although the national network is more reliable than an individual self-consumption facility). In this case go on a battery of less than 2kWc, but do not expect to wash the laundry with.
- or almost total self-consumption with a battery of at least 10 kWc and therefore with at least 3 kWp of PV to limit the loads from the network.

If the inverter can not inject the surplus (this must be the case with the imeon), fill in the 2017 / c / idiot-2A3c modified form 4B. it must actually be called a CAC (to see if it's still the case on the site Enedis)
If the inverter can physically inject into the national grid, it is necessary to complete a CRAE which involves passing the CONSUEL to certify the installation. And it will pay the producer TURPE every year (not beautiful life?)

The problem is that the Linky is a snitch that detects the injection. It is to wonder if it was not done for that. Enedis can cut you off and terminate your subscription with EDF. To cut the current it is never seen, but to demand sums for the current which you yielded free, it is already seen.
Without injection, neither seen nor known: undetectable for the Linky. There is only the drone.
I recommend a UPS without injection and make the steps of the CAC on the portal Enedis.
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Corre
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by Corre » 05/12/18, 11:47

Hello Enerc,

Thank you very much for this detailed answer. I noted below some of your remarks (underlined) and put comments in blue.

If you went on the forum photovoltaic, you are therefore informed of frequent scams. Good point. Do not take any company that calls and especially not those who call themselves EDF partner. This is the typical imprint of eco-offenders.

Yes, I am well aware of frequent scams. Not having a landline, I'm not too bothered by the touts. It is I who directly contact Finistère installers who are able to make me visit facilities they have made.

From an ecology point of view, CO2 emissions, pollution, extraction of minerals, etc ... putting batteries is a nonsense today. It will not be the case in 10-20 years where we will use batteries everywhere to manage the intermittency (car batteries, at home, etc ...).

It is true that we must take these points into account. According to the information I have been able to glean, lithium batteries are still cleaner than lead batteries. It also appears that lithium itself represents only 5 at 10% of the total composition of a battery.

Except to be in an isolated zone without access to the network, putting batteries is justified only by an attitude of distrust compared to the all-nuclear policy of the State and its armed arm Enedis (EDF) which poses technical constraints of Foolish connection to slow down the inevitable.

I am completely in this case.

Putting batteries is an act of revolt and / or activism. And the more we ask, the more likely we are to influence the decisions of the state towards a real acceptance of self-consumption (real, not the current speech false ass).


I completely agree with you

Once in the action of revolt and militancy, there are some technical constraints on the Lithium:
- the capacity must not be discharged more than once: if the battery is 2 kWh, the maximum power must not exceed 2000 W. In other words, the battery can not be discharged in one hour.
- it's the same for the load. Whether you charge with solar or from the network (in off-peak hours for example), you should charge less than 2000W this battery.
It is therefore necessary to have an inverter whose charging and discharging power is adapted to the capacity of the battery.
Otherwise, the battery may overheat, catch on fire or degrade quickly.


I understood this point well. I contacted Imeon Energy who gave me information on this subject. Pylontech batteries, which are compatible with their inverters, can apparently be charged in 2 hours and discharged in 1 hour. However, they indicated to me that the BMS of the battery sends real time "instructions" to the inverter concerning the maximum powers to be charged and discharged. So apparently it is not possible to exceed what the battery allows. For lead-acid batteries, the constraints are apparently much greater since it is necessary to avoid discharging them in less than 5 hours.

If the inverter can not inject the surplus (this must be the case with the imeon), fill in the 2017 / c / idiot-2A3c modified form 4B. it must actually be called a CAC (to see if it's still the case on the site Enedis)
If the inverter can physically inject into the national grid, it is necessary to complete a CRAE which involves passing the CONSUEL to certify the installation. And it will pay the producer TURPE every year (not beautiful life?)


The Imeon can do both depending on the setting (inject on the network or not): https://imeon-energy.com/apps/0-watt-meter/. I will see after validating the hardware part for the administrative aspects (but I think I opt for blocking the injection

For batteries, would you have brand preferences?
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by ENERC » 06/12/18, 07:42

For batteries, would you have brand preferences?

No.
There are 2 technos:
- NCMs that work outside but can catch fire (LG brand for example)
- LiFePO4 that only charge above 0 ° C but can not burn (BYD brand, Pylontech)
If you can put the batteries indoors, I will leave more on LiFePo4. If it is outside it is NCM, except Finistère close to the sea where it freezes very rarely.
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Petrus
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by Petrus » 08/12/18, 16:20

I understand the interest of lithium batteries for vehicles where their energy density is interesting, but for a static installation what are the advantages? Because the price is not at all the same as lead-acid batteries.
When it comes to the environmental impact, lead-acid batteries are easily recyclable and the processes already exist. By cons for lithium batteries, what do we do once the battery used?
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Corre
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Re: Self-consumption project with batteries Finistère




by Corre » 10/12/18, 16:18

Hello Petrus,

according to my calculations (which may not be good ...), lithium is actually much cheaper than lead if we take into account the total screw life of the batteries and the depth of discharge at which one can use them. That's how I calculated:

For gel batteries (lead), for a Victron 12V / 110Ah battery:

Online sale price for a battery: 330 €
Total energy: 1.32kWh
Useful energy (50% discharge): 0.66kWh
Price for 1kWh useful: 500 €
Lifetime (number of cycles at 50% discharge): 800
Price of a cycle: 0.625 €

For lithium batteries, for a Pylontech 48V / 50Ah battery:

Online sale price for a battery: 1350 €
Total energy: 2.4kWh
Useful energy (90% discharge): 1.2kWh
Price for 1kWh useful: 625 €
Lifetime (number of cycles at 90% discharge): 5000
Price of a cycle: 0.125 €

If my calculations are good, lithium is more than 5 times cheaper than lead ... I am interested if people have suggestions of elements to add to this comparison.

For battery recycling, I have a lot of trouble finding information.
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