Abuse of companies and direct sellers in solar PV

Forum solar photovoltaic PV and solar electricity generation from direct radiation solar energy.
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jlt22
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View jlt22 » 14/11/10, 22:16

My little experience

Some time ago, I had a visit from a direct seller.
On the phone the switchboard operator asked me if I was interested in a visit financed by EDF, to do a photovoltaic study on my house (this one faces south).
The direct seller was provided with his compass, and a small electronic device to measure the slope of the roof.
From there and from my sunshine zone, he determined the surface area of ​​the collectors for optimum production.

Then he embarked on a turnkey installation estimate, financing with all the aid granted and told me that my installation would pay for itself in 6 years;
For this, he included a maximum tax assistance for a couple, while I told him that I was living in a cohabitation and therefore that only one person should be taken into account.
He brushed aside my argument by telling me that the regulations had changed (obviously the operation would be much less profitable)
Finally, his system would be installed for a minimum of 30 years (it's the same technology as on the space station, so no problem.
All my arguments against were brushed aside with the back of the hand.
After 2h00 (watch in hand), I pointed out to him that given my age (64 years old), I had little chance of enjoying such a windfall, and that the best way to enjoy it a little, without too much risk, would be to rent my roof.
Having refused to sign his proposal, he got angry.
I had wasted his time, he had more to do with it.

I told him that I had been canvassed by telephone, and that I had been told that this visit was free, for information purposes, and that it was EDF which was financing this operation.

There, tenfold fury of the direct seller, who tells me that EDF has nothing to do with it; He will go back to the office and fire the secretary who did her job poorly.

Seeing that I was not being impressed, he left me moaning.
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 14/11/10, 22:17

Bernardd states:
And simpler, hot water tanks in the house: the losses heat the house.

More tanks generally too small to store from summer to winter (you need the volume of a nice big swimming pool (25x10x2m, mini and more very well insulated), for a few days we store with a few m3, but storing in the earth deep under the house and the garden is easiest on such large volumes without any insulation other than 3 to 4m of earth by the slow diffusion of heat over a distance which is like the square root of time: the distance of heat progression over 150 days (3m) is only 10 times that of 1,5 days (30cm) (and not the factor 100 applied to 30cm! !
To get into the brain that the heat advances by diffusion at a rate that decreases like the square root of time, and not at all at a constant rate as some instinctively think !!
http://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
http://earthshelters.com/
http://www.greenershelter.org/index.php?pg=3
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bernardd
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View bernardd » 14/11/10, 22:39

I understand that it is better, but I do not have the money or the ground to drill so many holes.

While adding recovery water heaters to my home, I can. If I could already store a month, that would be good: a month in a row without sun is rare.
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 15/11/10, 00:28

1 month is 6 times less in volume, so Christophe's swimming pool in his basement 70 to 80 m3 or some holes in the ground for water exchangers !!
Ask Christophe if his swimming pool (not isolated deep underground) lasts more than a month in January ???

We agree, we must design a cheap microrobot to freely drill and pull a pipe deep underground in all directions !!

This focus to very big impact on CO2 for a perpetual heating in the summer sun kept for the winter should not cost the billions of development of a future EPR !!
No ???????
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 15/11/10, 01:13

Unlike jtl22 who has undergone the methods of mental manipulation currently taught to salespeople, on people appearing weak, on the phone, I ask energy-saving phone canvassers if they ask exterior wall insulation (no one left for heat pumps and windows), if they sell inexpensive automatic boilers burning all wood fuel (no longer anyone too) and for photovoltaics if they are capable of storing summer solar thermal heat underground for winter heating (strictly nobody) !!
And if the conversation continues I explain to them why it is possible, then they are the ones who hang up !!

The technique of mental de-manipulation of salespeople is the same as theirs: coming out of remarks (exact however contrary to their lies) which confuse them with explanations they have never heard to which they have no answer !!

Finally, beware of these salespeople, there may be burglars trying to find houses to be burgled by visiting before to know the places.
So friends who had beautiful furniture appraised, a few months later had all this furniture broken into !!
So on my wife's side, after having returned a beautiful brand new MAC in its beautiful visible box, a few weeks after the house was forced and the MAC broke, but fortunately not paintings of greater value, but of little visible value for computer specialists !!
These correlations are not accidental after decades without burglary !!
Thus, I never receive such direct sellers: danger !!
Moreover if they ring, when I open the door, they see an IP camera taking a picture of them (she sends me an email with a photo of people in front of the open door, as soon as there is a burglary, for 100 € of camera !!) !!!
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bernardd
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View bernardd » 15/11/10, 07:42

dedeleco wrote:We agree, we must design a cheap microrobot to freely drill and pull a pipe deep underground in all directions !!


Absolutely, I had watched this 2 years ago. The best nowadays are small mine drills, made in Italy, with compressed air and possibly foam to lift the debris.

It would be necessary to build one which manages at the same time 3 or 4 bits for a single engine, and which digs to 10m maximum in France, to avoid any administrative problem and to simplify the technical constraints due to the depth.

With 3 or 4 holes at the same time, the operator's salary, which is the main cost, becomes depreciable.

And in the meantime, the water tank seems the best solution ...
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Christophe
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View Christophe » 15/11/10, 11:55

dedeleco wrote:Ask Christophe if his swimming pool (not isolated deep underground) lasts more than a month in January ???


It depends what you mean by holding ... at the lowest it is at 24-25 ° C ... which is unusable for heated floors but nevertheless constitutes an interesting reserve of inertia and makes it possible to preheat the DHW. But it is clear that it is illusory to seek autonomy with this means at an altitude of 400 m in the Belgian Ardennes with self-constructed panels.

On the other hand, to the south of Lyon and in the plain, that is to say with more solar potential and - needs, I think that such an installation and in the state would be largely autonomous!

Also do not forget that the design is over 30 years old and, for example, if the insulation is correct (walls 30 cm ytong), it is also not on top by current criteria


So don't bury the idea too quickly. I remind you that we consume 5 to 6 steres in a region where for an equivalent house we would be at least three times without the contributions of the buffer system.

A modern house near Friborg was built on the same principle, with the difference that the tank is really in the middle of the house (and must cost a "fortune"), see:
Video: https://www.econologie.com/maison-solair ... -3790.html
topic: https://www.econologie.com/forums/une-maison ... t5233.html

It remains a prototype for the moment.

Be careful if the long-term thermal phase shift is exciting (this is the key to solar heating), we are deviating from the subject there! So thank you either to refocus or to continue on storage elsewhere ... we have in particular a very good subject on palm oil as a storage material by phase change https://www.econologie.com/forums/stocker-de ... t7421.html

Coming back to the topic, I replied to the author.

Hello Mr M.,

I relayed the info on our forums https://www.econologie.com/forums/ because I agree on the form: there are abuses in the report and shameful methods (see example 1st message here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/abus-des-e ... 49-20.html ), the market is extremely fragile because linked to the state tariff policy and solar PV is much less efficient than insulation (although much less subsidized, see demonstration here: https://www.econologie.com/comparatif-en ... -3858.html )

However, apparently the association sauvonsleclimat has an energy doctrine opposite to ours.

Indeed; I wonder about the credibility of an "ecological" association defending electric heating: see references on https://www.econologie.com/forums/abus-des-e ... 10149.html .
Admit that, thermodynamically and energetically, electric heating is really the worst means of heating on primary energy.

You can relay my response to your contact list.

cordially
Christophe Martz


We'll be fine if I have an answer : Cheesy:
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sspid14
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View sspid14 » 17/11/10, 11:14

To come back to canvassing, I believe that it is no worse or better for solar PV than for other subject ... Indeed, they take advantage of bonuses and other incentives to encourage consumers but that is the goal. seems to me...
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Christophe
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View Christophe » 17/11/10, 12:15

Christophe wrote:We'll be fine if I have an answer : Cheesy:


I got one and answered it yesterday. I asked if I could put our exchanges on forums. I'm waiting for his permission.

His answer is "as I expected" ... To sum up: the "evil" is fossil fuels, the "good" is uranium ...

For me uranium is a fossil resource like any other since it comes from underground and is exhausted ...

sspid14 wrote:I believe that it is not worse or better for solar PV than for other topic ...


Well for me as an econologist, I think it's worse than for a lamda product because this kind of method harms the image of renewable energies in the long term ...

Fortunately, there are still (and this is the majority) honest pros!

But it's like the problem of delinquency in the suburbs: 5% of "bad" are enough to tarnish the image of an entire community!

But don't forget where the press release came from ... : Cheesy:
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 17/11/10, 16:30

For me uranium is a fossil resource like any other since it comes from underground and is exhausted ...

Well, uh, plus uranium, the oldest fossil energy resource on earth, 5 billion years old from the supernova that created us !!
Furthermore irretrievably lost forever after use, like helium 4 and 3, gold, platinum, silver, Ir, etc.
while the others can be replenished with sunlight.

So not to be used to protect our little children from pollution catastrophes of the Chernobyl type and to leave them this Ur for uses that we do not imagine !!
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