Placebo and Nocebo effects explained by Dr. Lemoine

General scientific debates. Presentations of new technologies (not directly related to renewable energies or biofuels or other themes developed in other sub-sectors) forums).
User avatar
Cuicui
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 3547
Registration: 26/04/05, 10:14
x 5




by Cuicui » 06/09/12, 09:14

Many health problems are linked to a weakened immune system due to recent stresses or to situations that revive old stresses.
The fact that we are well looked after, including with fictitious drugs, can create a feeling of security that promotes the restoration of the immune system and healing.
0 x

Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 16841
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 2273




by Janic » 06/09/12, 09:20

cuicui hello
it is correct but always only partially. A positive attitude is always favorable to a better being but is not always enough, otherwise medicine would have put its keys under the door and would be satisfied with the coué method.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6834
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 720




by sen-no-sen » 06/09/12, 11:09

Janic wrote:sen no sen
There you mix wild animal and domestic animal.


Absolutely not!
So how would it be possible to compare life expectancy - say a poodle - in captivity and in the wild, knowing that there is no poodle living in this state?

By cons it is completely different for a Tiger, Lion, Parrot, Chimpanzee ....
Living in captivity tends to significantly increase their life expectancy ... not their well-being ...

End of HS
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6834
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 720




by sen-no-sen » 06/09/12, 11:46

Obamot wrote:
Sen_No_Sen wrote:A remark concerning the absence of influence of the practitioner's speech on very young patients and animals: the content of the oral speech effectively escapes them, but not the sign language and the intonations of the voice to which they are very receptive.
This is only partially true. For these intonations or gestures to be explicit, they must be accentuated enough to be deciphered! [...]
If the master says: seated to a dog, he will sit down, if a stranger gives the same order, therefore the tone and the gestures, the animal will not.



It is Janic in response to Ahmed who we write this passage ... 8)


A remark concerning Placébo: it is an effective treatment in all psycho-functional pathologies, on the other hand it is ineffective for treating septicemia for example.
The effectiveness of it depends on many factors:

1) Method of administration
2) Colors, price, size (e.g. pills)
3) Function and charisma of the person administering the treatment


Similarly, their effectiveness is not the same depending on the ... country and the type of ailments to be combated.

Another incredible phenomenon, in 2007, researchers in neurophysiology of Turin administered placebo, - supposed to be doping substance - to athletes (who had received it during the training phase).
His last ones presented on the day of the competition a much better tolerance to the effort than the doped subjects in phase of training but without placebo on the day of the competition.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
Cuicui
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 3547
Registration: 26/04/05, 10:14
x 5




by Cuicui » 06/09/12, 12:59

Janic wrote:cuicui hello
it is correct but always only in part. A positive attitude is always favorable to a better being but is not always enough,.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that it does not disagree with yours.
0 x

Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 16841
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 2273




by Janic » 06/09/12, 13:38

then everything is for the best! : Cheesy:
0 x
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 24788
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 4179




by Obamot » 06/09/12, 14:11

Sen_No_Sen: sorry, my fork languished on the keyboard ( : Cheesy: ) my apologies for the mix of quotes!

For a septic shock, it is normal since it is about the beginning of necrosis, so there is irreversibility on the already "dead" tissues (except the liver which can be reconstituted if the square lobe is not not reached ...)
But nothing says that a placebo treatment could not slow down the process or stop it? So I would not be absolutely categorical.

Janic wrote:I had several dogs and they only react as if the master is present, in his absence the dog is no longer under influence and good courage to make him obey an order (unless he has been trained for this purpose !)

Don't say that, since you've probably never tried : Mrgreen: (or else you're not persuasive enough). Besides, I would say that it works especially if his master is not there! If he is there, there is confusion in his mind and he is probably even more aggressive, because hierarchically he will eventually want to defend his "status" in the "pack" and will therefore feel doubly threatened (by the intruder and by the challenge). status) ... and you say you had dogs :?: And you haven't observed that ...

Janic wrote:
Or, if you like, his patients were de facto an integral part of a sort of in-vivo laboratory (but this is pushing it a bit far, otherwise I would have had to be part of it too, since as a journalist, her method saved me ... But she might not have saved another person, having somewhat different biochemical characteristics or response ...)
this is what Ahmed's thinking underlies, the reassuring presence being sufficient in itself.

So, isn't it enough to be convinced of NLP's questions in relation to meat eaters and the socio-cultural aspect?

Janic wrote:The mere fact of trying a method (which we know has already proven itself) is a placebo element sufficient for some.

It doesn't have much to do with it, it's like you're not reading! The placebo effect, but at what stage ?! Do you know what happens in the second stage? Apparently you haven't "integrated" it yet, since you don't care! Because on the other hand, if we cannot predict the first stage, how is it possible to mortgage the second? Or to omit it?

Janic wrote:Where it's more interesting is when the person is opposed to a technique (like homeopathy) and it still works.

Janic, you're sometimes priceless. : Lol: Conversely, there are also cases where we give an active molecule and it doesn't work! While the patient was convinced that he was going to be cured ...!

Janic wrote:When I cite this case of a co-worker colleague with end-stage cancer and I say that he will get out of it, there is no placebo effect since neither doctor nor colleagues believe it. When he does, and I announce that he is going to die, no one believes me either and he dies as I had announced. No placebo or nocebo effect in sight.

: Shock: : roll: : roll: :?: :?:

Cuicui wrote:Many health problems are linked to a weakened immune system due to recent stresses or to situations that revive old stresses.
The fact that we are well looked after, including with fictitious drugs, can create a feeling of security that promotes the restoration of the immune system and healing.

Completely!
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6834
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 720




by sen-no-sen » 06/09/12, 14:29

Obamot wrote:
For a septic shock, it is normal since it is about the beginning of necrosis, so there is irreversibility on the already "dead" tissues (except the liver which can be reconstituted if the square lobe is not not reached ...)
But nothing says that a placebo treatment could not slow down the process or stop it? So I would not be absolutely categorical.


The placebo will not be the # 1 treatment for this type of pathology.
On the other hand, this can be a powerful aid to increase the capacity of a conventional treatment.
Placebo surgery also gives good results.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
Cuicui
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 3547
Registration: 26/04/05, 10:14
x 5




by Cuicui » 06/09/12, 16:45

Cuicui wrote:
Janic wrote:cuicui hello
it is correct but always only in part. A positive attitude is always favorable to a better being but is not always enough,.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that it does not disagree with yours.

For those who did not understand: my post described one of the mechanisms of the placebo effect, it did not claim that the placebo effect could cure everything.
0 x
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 24788
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 4179




by Obamot » 06/09/12, 17:49

Ok Sen_No_Sen

Do you mean anesthesia? Are you confusing it with hypnosis? You speak of acupressure or real "surgical acts" (because there, I would be a little less "for" ... question of benefit / risk it is far from being obvious, nor to be won in advance, for a possibly heavy intervention!)

Anyway, for your first point, it is certain that the well-informed practitioner must set the priorities himself "who are doing well" in the treatment. It is not up to the patient to do so in this case.

This is necessarily an area that cannot be fully accessible to the uninitiated. And it does not run through the streets yet, such practitioners ...!

I don't know if we will ever see self-medication in placebo treatment : Lol:

In this case, I rather see a preventive operating mode upstream (relaxation technique, meditation, massages, phytotherapy or whatever ...)

But it is a track to ponder!
0 x


 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Science and Technology"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 15 guests