The evolution of biological species and chance ...

[Obamot]

What an intriguing 'dialogue', mazette... And so contained, that believe it or not, I'm left speechless.

[GuyGadeboisTheBack]

"Content" is worthy of any idiot.

[izentrop]

It is more than uncertain whether this "machine" dates back to the ancient Greeks.

No doubt about it https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_d ... th%C3%A8re

[sen-no-sen]

There can be no answer to all this questioning.
If there is a creator, he is eternal, and therefore beyond time.
If God was built over time, who or what created him etc., the chicken, the egg etc.?

Siddhartha Gautama taught that questions about the origin of the universe could not lead to Enlightenment, and he was probably right.
On the origin of the origin, as I mentioned above, there cannot in fact be an answer for reasons that relate to thermodynamics.
Infinity reappears in all theories in one way or another, and to grasp infinity would require an equally infinite amount of energy as well as an eternity to process the resulting information. Infinity is a postulate that arises from our inability to have sufficient information.
However, we must not, as you probably do by mistake (?), tell us that there would be no answer to all these questions... while introducing an answer with the idea of ​​an "eternal creator, outside of time", which is well written but means absolutely nothing.
...On what basis can we assert this? We would need access to infinite energy and computing power for eternity. EDF is going to have a hard time!

It is important to remember that the idea of ​​God is a cultural construct, and this idea has evolved just like the species, going from the multiplicity of spirits of animism to a single God or even the absence of God. It is a matter of social organization, structure, culture and caloric capture.

As in many deistic systems of thought, God is inscribed according to a principle of ontological stop*,we can always place the idea of ​​god (or Tinkerbell or whatever) prior to a phenomenon.
We can say that God is at the origin of the Big Bang and the laws of physics. We can say many things, but they must be demonstrated, butwhat is asserted without proof can be refuted without proof...

The awakened, the mystics, those who by stopping the process of their own thought have temporarily entered eternity, cannot, when returning in time, explain in words what God is.
Whoever does so necessarily distorts the experience.
Words are of the order of thought and time and not of the order of eternity.
Apart from experiencing timelessness oneself, experiencing eternity, there can be no verbalizable and transmittable answer that is correct.

It is in fact by using the minimization of cognitive activity that mystics can access modified states of the psyche and merge into the indescribable.
However, the idea of ​​God only appears in those who have a deist culture, they use the culture in which they live. In Buddhism the supreme concept is Anata(the absence of self-existence) which has nothing to do with any divine being.
Dance Advaita Vedanta it's the Brahman,the absolute, unknowable, infinite and eternal.Ramana Maharshi spoke about the self.
In Kabbalah it is a question of The Atsmouto.
In all its highly spiritualist concepts there is never any question of a thinking being or an intelligence, but of a great insurmountable mystery. Contemporary physical sciences say nothing else, but they do not shout it too loudly.

On the other hand, between the Divine plan and us there are active plans on matter which intend an evolutionary process in matter. These are always plans where causality reigns.
If only thermodynamics ruled, we would be vortices at best.

Where would this intention come from? From a creator?

PS: We definitely need to stop using the chicken and egg "argument". Eggs appeared millions of years before our gallinaceous friends...
The question is whether a mutation transformed something that was not fully a chicken into a chicken after or before hatching.

* A buffer is a stopping device used in particular in the railway sector to signal the end of a railway track and prevent a derailment.
According to the same principle a ontological buffer is an idea that is placed at the end of any line of reasoning...to prevent the collapse of a belief.
In short, whatever the discoveries of science, we can always place God before it. And I could always place Tinkerbell or a cosmic cat before God and so on...ad infinitum.

[GuyGadeboisTheBack]

It is more than uncertain whether this "machine" dates back to the ancient Greeks.

No doubt about it https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_d ... th%C3%A8re

Not everyone agrees about this "technological miracle."

[eclectronvolt]

However, we must not, as you probably do by mistake (?), tell us that there would be no answer to all these questions... while introducing an answer with the idea of ​​an "eternal creator, outside of time", which is well written but means absolutely nothing.
...On what basis can we assert this? We would need access to infinite energy and computing power for eternity. EDF is going to have a hard time!

Yes, I should have clarified, but we could have deduced it from what followed.
It should have read "there will never be an answer in the form expected by thought".
To have an answer, we must precisely get out of thought, for it to stop, so that psychological time stops in us and there, answers outside the framework of time can emerge.
Hence the analogy with Pac-man in his 2D world who wants to understand and experience 3D while remaining absolutely within his 2D framework. This is impossible unless you experience 3D.
Well, it's the same here, you have to stop the time constructed by your own mind.
The "it is necessary" is still a question of time. We can clearly see that the approach to adopt is not the one common to thought. It is rather a question of adopting an approach of stripping down with regard to thought.
It would be better to write "when psychological time stops within oneself, God can manifest himself."
And still not in a form comprehensible by oneself, that is to say not in a form comprehensible by thought, not in a form describable by words.


Eternity includes time but not the other way around, time, which has a beginning and an end cannot include eternity.
Thought, which is also time, deduces that infinite energy, infinite computing power is required.
For her, no doubt, as for Pac-man to understand 3D.
So no, we must stop time in ourselves and this is what the awakened ones like Gautama do, they see the limitation that is time constructed by thought, they see that the character that has been constructed over time is only an illusion.
Once stripped of the limitations of the mind, something that can be called God can manifest.
Otherwise, in the framework of thought, God is only blah blah, a cultural construction in fact, a lie which remains in the order of time and thought.

There is no proof for the thought of the existence of God, since it is outside the framework of this. At best one can have an idea of ​​it, which is not the thing.

[eclectronvolt]

PS:

Where would this intention come from? From a creator?

God is indeed a word, we can use others like emptiness, space, eternity where all creation is possible.
Intentions would come from beings living only on one of the multiple dimensions constituting us, in addition to the material 3D.
Here again it is the same, as long as thought obstructs, nothing exists apart from it. It bites its tail, let's say, it locks itself and it can be very solid!

[Janic]

sen no sen

The postulate of the creator without origin on which creationism is based constitutes an anthropomorphic, individualistic and, to say the least, naive projection bias.

Naive, naive? It reminded me of this passage:

science-and-technology/the-magic-of-the-cosmos-t13085-110.html?hilit=jean%20rostand#p272544

A basic postulate drawn from a literal reading of the biblical texts.

No more! This assumption is not necessarily taken from biblical texts, the scientists cited do not refer to it.

• “The probability that our universe is the result of chance is comparable to that of an archer managing to plant his arrow in the middle of a square target 1 cm on each side and located at the other end of the universe.” Trinh Xuan Thuan (Astrophysicist)

• George Ellis, astrophysicist English admits that the precise adjustment of the laws of the universe is a miracle: "A stunning adjustment occurs in the laws of the universe, making life possible. Realizing this, it is difficult not to use the term "miracle" without taking a position on the ontological status of this world" (G. Ellis, The Anthropic Principle)

• Paul Davies, famous astrophysicist British, 'There is very strong evidence to me that something is going on behind all this...it feels as if someone has adjusted these numbers of the laws of nature in order to create the universe...the sense of intelligent design is overwhelming' (P. Davies, The Cosmic Imprint, p.203.)

• The “face of God”? This is the expression used the astrophysicist George Smoot (Nobel Prize 2006) when on April 23, 1992, he succeeded, thanks to the Cobe satellite, in taking pictures of the birth of the Universe as it emerged from the cosmic darkness just 380.000 years after the Big Bang.

• "the origin of life," says Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick, Biology, currently seems to be a miracle, as there are so many conditions that must be met to implement it"

• For the writer Jim Holt in his book ´´Science Has Resurrected God´´, he writes: "I remember seeing a few months ago a poll in the science magazine 'Nature' which indicated that Almost half of American physicists, biologists, and mathematicians believed in God, and not just a metaphysical abstraction but an entity who cares about human affairs and hears our prayers, that is, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"

• "for a long time we thought that science would drive out the religious function, it was a mistake", as theastrophysicist Hubert Reeves

• The Englishman Sir William Herschel (1738-1822), founder of stellar astronomy wrote: "The more the domain of science expands, the more numerous become the powerful and irrefutable arguments proving the existence of an eternal Creator with unlimited and infinite power. Geologists, mathematicians, astronomers and naturalists have all collaborated in building the edifice of science which is, in truth, the foundation of the supreme Greatness of the one God.

• Louis Pasteur said: “A little science takes you away from God, but a lot of science brings you back to Him.”

• Physicist Mehdi Golshani of Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, in an interview with Newsweek, stressed his belief in God and that scientific research complements religion : "Natural phenomena are the signs of God in the universe and studying them is practically a religious obligation. The Quran instructs humans to "travel through the earth, and see how He initiated creation." Research is an act of worship, since it reveals the wonders of God's creation. "Science finds god news week 20 July 1998"

• " "Research DNA biologists have shown, by the almost inconceivable complexity of the arrangements necessary to produce [life], that an intelligence must necessarily be involved." Anthony flew

• “I admire all engineers, but especially the biggest of them : God! » Thomas Edison (1847,1931):

• “ Atheism is too contemptible to claim to be science or reason or to deserve the name of any ideology! It is too insignificant and too small to have the right to exist!.........»To flee from faith, he takes refuge in abstract speculations and sophisms that he would certainly have thrown aside if he had submitted them to the judgment of his healthy nature. He would have, in the same way, understood that his true feelings and what his imagination dictates to him are diametrically opposed. If one day, we were asked: "Who is the man who lies to himself the most?" We would say, without any hesitation: It is the atheist! Camille Flammarion, astronomer French (1842-1925)


• Isaac Newton (1642-1727), considered the greatest scientist of all time, was a great astronomer and physicist English, he states:
"Do not doubt the existence of the Creator! It is, in fact, unthinkable that it is necessity alone that directs the universe! For a blind necessity, and escaping all change, one cannot imagine that it is at the origin of this world with all its diversity and the harmony and order that characterize it, and this despite the change of times and places! Let us rather say that all this can only come from an eternal Being endowed with wisdom and will. »

• Al-Biruni (973 - 1048) was one of the greatest scientists of the medieval era Georges Sarton states: "Al-Biruni was both a explorer, philosopher, mathematician, astronomer, geographer and encyclopedic scholar. He is one of the greatest figures of Islam and among the most illustrious scholars of all time" Biruni proposed that the Earth rotates around its own axis, 600 years before Galileo, he determined the Earth's circumference 700 years before Newton.

• Robert Boyle (1627-1691): the father of the modern chemistry affirms:
"The true scientist cannot penetrate by force into the secrets of creation without perceiving the finger of God."

• André-Marie Ampère (1775 - 1836). Physicist and chemist French, founder of electromagnetism, states:
"The true scholar Happy is he who in his learned vigils,
From this vast universe contemplating the wonders,
Before so much beauty, before so much grandeur,
Bow and recognize a divine creator.
I do not share the crazy inconsistency
Of the scientist who, from a God disputes the existence,
Who closes his ear to the announcement of the heavens,
And refuses to see what shines in his eyes.
To know God, to love him, to pay him a pure homage,
This is the true knowledge and study of the wise. »

• Michael Faraday (1791-1867)

founder of electrochemistry

, he is recognized as the greatest physicist of all time he states: "Since only one God created the world, all of nature must be interconnected into a single whole." Based on this idea, he concluded that electricity and magnetism must be related

• Wernher von Braun (1912- 1977) Former director of NASA, he was one of the most famous scientists to come out of Nazi Germany, he was the inventor of the V2, the first ballistic missile used during the Second World War.
"One cannot confront the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be a design and purpose behind it all... The more we understand the complexities of the universe and its workings, the more reason we have to wonder at the inherent design that underlies it... Being forced to believe in only one conclusion – that everything in the universe appeared by chance – would violate the objectivity of science itself... What random process could a man's brain or the human eye system produce?..."

• Dr. Fritz Schaefer is chemistry teacher to Graham Perdue, and director of the Center for Quantum Chemistry Computing at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize five times. Schaefer says his discoveries are bringing him closer and closer to understanding the work of God:
"The meaning and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments when I discover something new and say to myself, 'So this is how God made it.'"

• Al-Khuwarizmi is one of the greatest names to have influenced mathematics, he is considered the founder of algebra, discipline that he created by giving it the name of "al jabr", the term "algorithm" that is often used in mathematics is, in fact, linked to al-Khuwarizmi. He had several other contributions in mathematics, such as the introduction of the numbers that we use today (known today as Arabic numerals), the establishment of the rule of the double error, the resolution of the second degree equation. His book on algebra begins with these words:
"The Imam and Amir of the Believers al-Ma'mun... encouraged me to compose a concise work on the calculation al-jabr and al-muqabala, limited to the art of calculation which is pleasant and of great interest, which people constantly need for their inheritances, their wills, their sentences, their transactions, and in all the affairs which they transact among themselves, notably the surveying of lands, the digging of canals, geometry, and other things of the sort." Which underlines that faith and science are complementary.

• William Dembski is one of the mathematical scientists renowned scientists of our time, he emphasizes that science is an attempt to understand the world: "The world is God's creation, and scientists in their understanding of the world simply reconstruct God's thoughts. Scientists are not creators but discoverers... The important thing about the act of creation is that it reveals the Creator. The act of creation always bears the signature of the Creator."

• Dr. Allan Sandage, one of the most famous astronomers of our time, recognized himself in the faith in the existence of God at the age of 50.
In an interview published in Newsweek magazine, published under the title "Science Finds God", Sandage explains "It was my science that led me to the conclusion that The world is much more complicated than can be explained by science. It is only through the supernatural that I understand the mystery of existence.

• Albert McCombs Winchester was president of the Florida Academy of Sciences, He claims that Scientific research strengthens his belief in God : "Today I am happy to say, after many years of study and work in the fields of science, that my faith in God, rather than having been shaken, has been strengthened and has acquired a stronger foundation than ever. Science brings insight into the majesty and omnipotence of the Supreme Being that grows with each new discovery."

• Michael J. Behe ​​is one of the most renowned scientists to believe that the cosmos and all living beings are the product of intelligent design. Behe ​​is professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania. He has published numerous articles in such well-known journals as the New York Times and the Boston Review. Behe ​​is the author of Darwin's Black Box, which has been distributed in 80 countries, WHO PROVED BIOLOGICALLY THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION CANNOT BE TRUE. In Darwin's Black Box, Behe ​​writes:
"They were designed not by the laws of nature, nor by chance or necessity; but rather they were planned. The Designer knew what the systems would look like when they were finished, and then He created them. Life on earth at its most fundamental level, in its most critical components, is the product of intelligent activity.
The conclusion of intelligent design follows naturally from the data themselves... Inferring that biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent is a trivial process that requires no new principles of logic and science. It simply comes from the important work that biochemistry has done over the last forty years, and considering how we reach design conclusions every day."

26 testimonies from the most cutting-edge scientists in science! Plus the uncited philosophers.
And the cherry on the special Sen no sen cake:

• William Thomson (1824,1907), better known as Lord Kelvin, was the great physicist, founder of thermodynamics , he said:
"Science positively affirms the existence of a creative power which it urges us to accept as an article of faith."
He also says: "Do not be afraid ofto be free thinkers. If you think hard enough, you will be compelled by science to believe in God."

But of course, he, like the previous ones, was a big naive!
But Sen no sen is a big fan of the Buddhist religion, which explains the reason for his philosophical-religious beliefs, mixed with a bit of "science"

[GuyGadeboisTheBack]

More rehash. All that to say what? Always the same thing... 302 pages and it lasts.

[Janic]

30/09/24, 09:40
wooden head

More rehash. All that to say what? Always the same thing... 302 pages and it lasts.

This is just to remind you that this kind of scholars recognized and honored by their peers are a tad more competent than you and me in their field, and even more than the Izy of the AFIS/Psiram sect that you love so much! Hence their convictions scientists on what cultures call god!