Covid and Didier Raoult (supporter of hydroxychloroquine): analyzes on the pandemic

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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View ABC2019 » 22/07/20, 12:03

Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:Back to more interesting things like this article

I find it more interesting to think about the causes of the differences of opinion than to know what the exact effect of HCQ is: because anyway this effect is certainly not spectacular, otherwise it would have been revealed easily in all the studies, and in addition it is clear that the control of the epidemic will be much more linked to the control of contaminations and the possible development of a vaccine, than to the use of a treatment with hazardous efficacy ( yes of course I include remdesivir in these treatments).

But thinking about the origin of the discordance of opinions, and more generally the mechanisms of belief formation, that can be used for a whole lot of problems.

So do you think that those who believe here in the effectiveness of HCQ have on the whole an approach closer to the scientific approach than those who do not believe in it, or do you think on the contrary that it is those who do not do not believe in it who have a more scientific approach, but that it is not adapted to the problem?
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View ABC2019 » 22/07/20, 12:20

(obviously these questions are addressed to those who believe in the effectiveness of HCQ, for those who do not believe in it, the answer seems obvious to me - the simple observation of an asymmetry in the questions is also in itself very informative).
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View Obamot » 22/07/20, 12:23

It is not a question of “believing” or not, only the therapeutic facts count.

ABC2019 wrote:in any case, this effect is certainly not spectacular, otherwise it would have been easily revealed in all the studies,

Wouldn't it be rather the opposite? ... precisely because a treatment would be effective (because less impacting for patients) that it would not need to be defended so much by studies.
Why always rehash ...?
ABC2019 wrote:
The origin of positions taken predates this debate and comes from several factors, among the first of which: this confusion between “causes and effects”, “fallacies”, a (stupid) propensity to defend “the establishment”, the profound lack of skills, the decentring of some of their own evaluation, the need of some to “assert themselves” (ego) which takes precedence over establishing the truth of the facts, then linked to this last point the preferences of people (to name just a few). As for those you see in a homogeneous group defending chloroquine, it is not.

I did not speak of a "homogeneous" group, I just said that there was a group defending HCQ, and a group which does not defend it (more exactly which is not convinced that it is efficient), that's all.

Now indeed once this observation has been made we can go a little further, when you say that it is not homogeneous, what do you think of as "non-homogeneity"?

It is not a “body corporate”. And so a supposed group as you define it here doesn't exist, sorry). I said that it's not because one of the groups exists (the one you say you belong to does exist, since you “materialized” it : Mrgreen: ) that this is implicitly proof that another is facing him. And I said why it wasn't (in this paragraph).

The people you quote, moreover, do not agree with each other: either on details or on the substance, but do not express it (we let it go because of this ridiculous stigma or the clan form outweighs the substance: science) suddenly it can give the impression of a group,

You're a bit like the Gestapo trying to classify the population between Jews and non-Jews ...! (and other groups)
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View ABC2019 » 22/07/20, 13:07

Obamot wrote:It is not a question of “believing” or not, only the therapeutic facts count.

Of course, but obviously there are those who believe the therapeutic facts have spoken, and those who do not.

ABC2019 wrote:in any case, this effect is certainly not spectacular, otherwise it would have been easily revealed in all the studies,

Wouldn't it be rather the opposite? ... precisely because a treatment would be effective (because less impacting for patients) that it would not need to be defended so much by studies.

I do not understand what you say there ... how to know that it is effective without studies? even Raoult did studies to show it, didn't he? (not double blind but studies anyway !!)

It is not a “body corporate”. And so a supposed group as you define it here doesn't exist, sorry). I said that it's not because one of the groups exists (the one you say you belong to does exist, since you “materialized” it : Mrgreen: ) that this is implicitly proof that another is facing him. And I said why it wasn't (in this paragraph).

well of course that yes, it does exist, not as a "body constituted", but as ... group what: it is made up of those who think that a treatment based on HCQ + possible adjuvants has a real effectiveness against the covid -19, and it's been proven. You just have to ask the question of whether you believe it or not to know if you are in this group!
I didn't say that it was an organized, homogeneous group, or any of that, I just said that there is a set of forumers here who believe in it (and people in France and in the world more generally).
The people you quote, moreover, do not agree with each other: either on details or on the substance, but do not express it (we let it go because of this ridiculous stigma or the clan form outweighs the substance: science) suddenly it can give the impression of a group,

There is no stigma, it's just to clarify the reasons for the divergence a little, in order to see more clearly. On what "details" or "substantive issue" is there disagreement among those who believe in the effectiveness of HCQ then?

You're a bit like the Gestapo trying to classify the population between Jews and non-Jews ...! (and other groups)

ah, point Godwin ... but there is not only the Gestapo who did it, everyone did it ... even the Jews :) . That's not what's embarrassing, it's knowing what you're doing with it (and I reassure you, I never thought that we should deport those who believe in the effectiveness of HCQ!)
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View Adrien (ex-nico239) » 22/07/20, 13:31

Back to more interesting things like this article


Specific cellular immune response against the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus: encouraging results, other intriguing

An article accepted for publication in the journal Nature indicates that all the convalescent Covid-19 patients studied (who have therefore been infected with SARS-CoV-2) have immune cells directed against virus proteins. They developed what immunologists call a T lymphocyte response. In these 36 patients included in the study, all have two categories of white blood cells capable of recognizing the virus, namely CD4 T lymphocytes ("conductors" immune response) and CD8 (killer or cytotoxic cells).

These results therefore seem to indicate that the vast majority of patients recovering from Covid-19, if not all, develop an immune response with production of T lymphocytes following infection with SARS-CoV-2. This result is important insofar as it is above all the cellular response that supports the eradication of the virus during viral infections. However, it is this cellular response, in association with the production of specific antibodies, which participates in healing. This explains why ideally a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 should induce not only the production of specific and neutralizing antibodies but also a robust and lasting cellular immunity.

Conducted by Singaporean researchers, this study was posted on the website of the journal Nature on July 15, 2020. It also reports that patients formerly affected by SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) still have, 17 years later, lymphocytes capable of reacting against SARS-CoV-1 [1].

Until now, it was known that the cellular “memory” response (T lymphocytes specific for SARS-CoV-1), that which remains after recovery, could persist for at least eleven years. Indeed, it should be noted that a category of “memory” T lymphocytes persists in the body after recovery. We speak of memory T cells because they are immediately reactivated in the event of a new infection.

Persistence of a cellular T response 17 years after SARS

There is therefore a very long-lasting memory immune response in patients with SARS in patients who have been infected with SARS-CoV-1. These memory T lymphocytes, still present 17 years after viral infection, are also capable of recognizing a similar coronavirus, in this case SARS-CoV-2.

"This result is encouraging insofar as it suggests that patients who have developed Covid-19 have the capacity, like patients formerly suffering from SARS, to develop a memory cellular immunity specific to SARS-CoV-2 from long duration. This is rather reassuring because it suggests that these memory CD4 and CD8 T lymphocytes, capable of persisting for a very long time, could be protective in the event of reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 ”, comments Pr Benjamin Terrier (Cochin hospital, Paris) * who did not participate in the work published in Nature.

According to this specialist, "in such a case, the immune system could indeed quickly remobilize these memory T cells, which could generate killer cells capable of eradicating the virus, even though at that time the neutralizing antibodies would no longer be present. This long-lasting T-cell immunity against SARS-CoV-2 could perhaps protect against severe forms of Covid-19 in the event of reinfection ”.

Surprisingly, this study reveals that T lymphocytes specific for SARS-CoV-2 are also present in more than 50% of healthy people, who have not been infected with either SARS-CoV-1 or SARS-CoV. -2. These results therefore seem to indicate the existence of a certain level of pre-existing immunity against SARS-CoV-2 in the general population.

But how could people who have not been exposed to SARS-CoV-1 or SARS-CoV-2 have developed a memory cellular response to coronaviruses that they have never encountered? American researchers reported last April in the journal Cell that approximately 70% of convalescent Covid-19 patients had SARS-CoV-2 specific T lymphocytes in their blood (70% CD4 lymphocytes and 100% CD8 lymphocytes) .

These scientists claimed to have also detected CD4 lymphocytes reacting against SARS-CoV-2 in about 40% to 60% of individuals who were not yet exposed to this virus. They then suggested the possibility that banal infections by seasonal coronaviruses, by inducing CD4 and CD8 T lymphocyte responses, could be responsible for cross-immunity between these common cold coronaviruses and SARS-CoV2. But this is not the hypothesis adopted by the Singaporean researchers.

Indeed, the new study to appear in Nature advances the hypothesis that this "cross immunity" is due to the fact that our immune system keeps in memory the memory of contact with coronaviruses having nothing to do with the coronaviruses responsible for the common cold. but that they retain the memory of exposure to all other viruses, in this case to animal coronaviruses that we do not know. These are "particularly intriguing results," say Nina Le Bert, Antonio Bertoletti and their colleagues at Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore in their article.
Schematic representation of a coronavirus and its structural proteins. The N protein binds to genomic RNA and forms a nucleocapsid around it. Coded by viral RNA, non-structural proteins are not incorporated into virions. Juckel D, et al. Med Sci (Paris). 2020; 36 (6-7): 633-641.

Structural and non-structural proteins

But how did these researchers come to such a startling conclusion? A little reminder on coronaviruses is in order. Coronaviruses are composed of so-called structural proteins because they enter into the architectural composition of mature viral particles or virions. Their genome also codes for so-called “non-structural” proteins (NSPs). These are produced only during the infectious cycle because they are essential for viral replication. Although encoded by viral RNA, these non-structural proteins are not, however, incorporated into the structure of the viral particles excreted by infected cells.

T-cell specific immunity in convalescent Covid-19 patients

The Singaporean researchers conducted experiments consisting in testing for the presence of T-cell immunity specific to SARS-CoV-2 first in convalescent Covid-19 patients, then in patients who survived SARS, and finally in people who have not been exposed to either SARS-CoV-1 or SARS-CoV-2 (i.e. individuals who have not suffered from SARS, have not developed Covid-19 and have not who have not been in contact with people infected with SARS-CoV-2).

In these three categories of individuals, immunologists looked for T lymphocytes specifically directed against a structural protein of SARS-CoV-2: the N protein of the nucleocapsid which is very abundant in viral particles and whose structure is very similar among Betacoronaviruses, a group of coronaviruses that mainly infect mammals. They also investigated whether these people had developed specific T-cell immunity to two non-structural proteins (NSPs) of the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus: NSP7 and NSP13, which are essential to function early in the process. viral replication cycle. The researchers were interested in NSP7 and NSP13 insofar as these two non-structural proteins are 99% identical to those of SARS-CoV-1, SARS-CoV-2 and other animal coronaviruses belonging to the group of Betacoronaviruses [ 2].

Immunologists and virologists cut the N (core), NSP7 and NSP13 proteins into several fragments, thus producing a collection of peptides. They then incubated white blood cells from 36 convalescent Covid-19 patients for several hours with these peptides [3]. In all 36 people tested, the researchers observed specific cellular responses directed against several regions of the N protein. In addition, it was shown (in 7 out of 9 patients) that T lymphocytes which had specifically reacted against the protein N were able to produce interferon-gamma, a marker of the response to infections.

In addition, the researchers observed that people recovering from Covid-19 have specific T cells that recognize the same regions (epitopes) of the N protein as T cells from individuals who have been victims of SARS. The fact that patients who have recovered from Covid-19 and SARS can develop a T-cell immune response against identical viral patterns shows the existence of cross-cell immunity in these two infections. Infection with SARS-CoV-1 therefore induces the production of T lymphocytes capable of also reacting against SARS-CoV-2.

In their experiments with 15 SARS survivors, the researchers showed that these individuals had in their blood, 17 years later, white blood cells still capable of reacting against the N protein of SARS-CoV-1 and of producing l 'interferon-gamma when these immune cells are incubated in the laboratory in contact with viral peptides. This specific T immune response, however, has been observed almost exclusively with peptides of the N protein, not with fragments of the non-structural NSP proteins.

Likewise, the researchers observed that 23 SARS survivors had T lymphocytes in their blood capable of reacting in the laboratory to the presence of peptides derived from the N protein of SARS-CoV-2. They produce interferon-gamma. These cells turn out to be CD4 and CD8 memory T lymphocytes.

According to the researchers, these results therefore allow us to hope that, like SARS-CoV-1, the T cell immunity induced by SARS-CoV-2 could also be long-lasting in patients who have developed the disease. Covid-19.

Finally, the researchers explored the T-cell immunity specific to SARS-CoV-2 in subjects not exposed to SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2. Blood samples were taken from 26 subjects before July 2019, so well before the start of the Covid-19 pandemic. Eleven other individuals who had not developed any neutralizing antibody against SARS-CoV-2 or antibodies directed against the N protein of this same virus, participated in this third part of the experiments. In total, the researchers explored the cellular immunity of 37 healthy people who had not been exposed to either SARS-CoV-1 or SARS-CoV-2.

Truly confusing results

Surprisingly, the researchers indicated that they had detected specific SARS-CoV-2 interferon-gamma responses in 19 of these 37 subjects not exposed to SARS-CoV-1 or to SARS-CoV-2. And to specify: while the patients victims of Covid-19 and SARS reacted preferentially to peptides derived from the N protein (66% of Covid-19 patients and 91% of SARS patients with T lymphocytes recognized only the protein N), this group of unexposed individuals exhibited an immune response directed against both the N protein and the non-structural proteins NSP7 and NSP13. In addition, the researchers observed a cellular immune response against the NSP non-structural proteins in a single patient among 59 individuals with Covid-19 or SARS, such a response was observed in 9 unexposed subjects out of the 19 tested.

Detailed characterization of regions of viral proteins recognized by T cells

More precisely, it turns out that those people who have never encountered SARS-CoV-2 (like SARS-CoV-1) have T lymphocytes which recognize a particular region (epitope) inside the structural protein. N, also recognized by the T lymphocytes of patients who have been victims of Covid-19 or SARS. In these people who had never encountered SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-COV-2, the researchers also succeeded in identifying CD4 T lymphocytes specific for a sub-region (epitope) of the non-structural protein NSP7 and CD8 T lymphocytes specific for a subregion of the non-structural protein NSP13 [3].
Human and animal coronaviruses. Vabret A, et al. Pathol Biol (Paris). 2009; 57 (2): 149-160.

Cross-immunity with animal coronaviruses?

It is truly intriguing that people who have never encountered SARS-CoV-2 (like SARS-CoV-1) can develop specific T cell immunity against these particular regions within the NSP7 and NSP13 non-structural proteins. Indeed, the structure of these sub-regions (epitopes) of SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2 differs greatly from those of winter coronaviruses (OC43, HKU1, NL63, 222E) [4] responsible for the common cold each winter. . This is even more true for the epitope recognized by CD8 T lymphocytes whose structure differs even more from that present in these four seasonal coronaviruses.

If the coronaviruses that circulate every winter are not involved, how can these results be explained? According to the authors, the explanation could lie in the fact that “other coronaviruses still unknown, perhaps of animal origin, could be at the origin of this cross-immunity with SARS-CoV-2 observed in the population general ”.

“That betacoronaviruses from animals, and not as one might have believed from human alphacoronaviruses which plague every winter, can be the source of cross-immunity with SARS-CoV-2, is a really intriguing hypothesis. These results suggest that half of us would have been in contact with animal coronaviruses that we do not yet know and that therefore remain to be discovered ”, confides in me Professor Benjamin Terrier.

Exposed but not infected

The researchers hypothesize that a small part of the population exposed to animal coronaviruses not yet known could have developed T lymphocytes specific for certain proteins involved in the start of the viral replicative cycle. However, infection with these coronaviruses would have been abortive. In other words, the replication cycle would have been initiated but would have been interrupted. The infection would therefore have ended. Therefore, it would not have made it possible to produce mature viral particles (virions). However, it would have been enough for the immune system to react against non-structural proteins which assemble to form the machinery essential to start the replication of viral RNA [5]. Conversely, in patients with Covid-19 or SARS, the N protein is produced in very large quantities by infected cells. It binds to viral RNA and forms a "nucleocapsid" around it. Located within the viral particle, it is released in large quantities upon the death of infected cells when they release mature virions.

In support of their thesis, the Singapore researchers point out that the genomic sequences [6] which code for these non-structural proteins involved in the early stages of the viral replicative cycle are extremely close in many coronaviruses. The abundant presence of these viruses in many animal species could therefore result in repeated exposure in humans. These viral infections would not go through to term but could all the same induce a cellular immune reaction specifically directed against non-structural proteins (NSP).

This immune reaction directed against certain regions of NSP that are very similar between different coronaviruses could be the cause of cross-immunity with SARS-CoV-2. Healthy individuals, not exposed to SARS-CoV-1 or SARS-CoV-2, but having been in contact with other animal coronaviruses, could have developed T-memory cells specific for SARS-CoV-2.

Could this specific T cell immunity against SARS-CoV-2, possibly acquired during infections with animal coronaviruses "currently unknown", explain the differences observed in terms of infection rates between different populations or the differences in susceptibility to SARS-CoV-2 infection between individuals? Could such pre-existing T cell immunity in the general population influence the course of SARS-CoV-2 infection? Would this pre-existing specific T cell immunity thus be capable of interrupting the viral infection before it becomes widespread? It is therefore important to determine whether having T lymphocytes reactive against structural and non-structural proteins could have a beneficial impact in the event of infection with SARS-CoV-2. It now remains to quickly conduct similar studies in Western countries, or even in different regions of the same country.

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izentrop
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View izentrop » 22/07/20, 14:25

I feel you revere: 2 pages filled with off topic, when the link was enough.
On the other hand, to say that the HCQ does not work in vivo, it is right in there.
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View Adrien (ex-nico239) » 22/07/20, 14:41

izentrop wrote:I feel you revere: 2 pages filled with off topic, when the link was enough.
On the other hand, to say that the HCQ does not work in vivo, it is right in there.


Image with the dunces you have to be educators and bring them everything on a plate
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View GuyGadebois » 22/07/20, 14:43

Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:
izentrop wrote:I feel you revere: 2 pages filled with off topic, when the link was enough.
On the other hand, to say that the HCQ does not work in vivo, it is right in there.


Image with the dunces you have to be educators and bring them everything on a plate

With this one who reads nothing and repeats his same mantras over and over, it's not won. Besides, when he reads he doesn't understand .... : Mrgreen:
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View pedrodelavega » 22/07/20, 18:19

2 new studies published in "Nature":

"Chloroquine does not inhibit infection of human lung cells by SARS-CoV-2"
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2575-3

"A preclinical study published in nature shows that hydroxychloroquine has no antiviral effect against SARS_CoV_2 in vivo, before infection and in the first days after infection."
Bringing together scientists from CEA, Inserm, Institut Pasteur, CNRS, Université de Paris-Saclay, AP-HM, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1 and Aix-Marseille university,
https://presse.inserm.fr/une-etude-prec ... ivo/40346/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2558-4
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Re: Resignation of Dr Raoult, supporter of Chloroquine, from the Covid Scientific Council19




View Obamot » 22/07/20, 19:25

- “Chloroquine does not inhibit infection of human lung cells with SARS-CoV-2"

Who cares it's not HCQ + Az, and who cares as long as there is a lung infection, it had to be treated immediately.

And Azytromicin on macaques, that I never heard : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy: it's cool.
Always too Has Been Pedro or are you doing it on purpose?
Don't you think it would have been better to TREAT and not “test”, and this during the peak pandemic? Could there have been fewer deaths?

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ABC2019 wrote:
Obamot wrote:It is not a “body corporate”. And so a supposed group as you define it here doesn't exist, sorry). I said that it's not because one of the groups exists (the one you say you belong to does exist, since you “materialized” it : Mrgreen: ) that this is implicitly proof that another is facing him. And I said why it wasn't (in this paragraph).

well of course that if it exists, not as a "body constituted",

Well in this case, if you admit that it's perfect, end of story !.

Personally, I am NOT for HCQ + Az but so that everyone can work on their own immunity while having an appropriate lifestyle, using medication is for lack of anything better (I am definitely not “for ”). So I am not part of your target / group ... And I was never able to say it because with the intoxication that you developed, the debate could never start: congratulations, it's a frank “Success” for the pro Gilead / Pharma group : Mrgreen:

Because as my opinion is only valid for me, and since I cannot predict the opinions of other comrades of forum (but who I would be to say that in their place: myself) - since it is NOT a 'corporate body' - so I can't speak for something that doesn't exist as such, except in your brain fogged with HCQ * : Mrgreen: ...

And I wouldn't go back on it :D :D

* You can see that it produces an effect : Mrgreen:
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