Restoration of a river stone wall

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Obamot
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by Obamot » 02/05/13, 14:40

chatelot16 wrote:lime and cement are bad household? on the contrary it mixes very well to make intermediate properties

pure lime, or fatty lime or air lime hardens only if it is dried

hydraulic lime, hardened even when wet, and then better resists water ... hydraulic lime is a mixture of cement and pure lime obtained in a single firing, with limestone containing clay, but not enough to make real cement ... we can do the equivalent of hydraulic lime by mixing pure lime and a little cement

you can also make the equivalent of hydraulic lime by mixing pure lime with brick or crushed pouzolane: that was the recipe for the Romans! So whether the clay is in the limestone to make hydraulic lime, or cooked separately in brick, then mixed with lime, it has the same effect

I have already done masonry with pure lime, it takes forever to harden: it is an advantage because it allows to settle well without any crack ... but it is absolutely necessary that the wall is dry to harden

with 20% of cement in pure lime, it becomes hydraulic lime, it hardens more slowly than cement alone but it still hardens entirely even in water, or even in often moist earth

masons who worked at my house used what they called bastard mortar: mixing half cement half hydraulic lime ... at the time I knew nothing about it ... now I understand that if it is to mix cement, it is useless to take hydaulic lime: with air lime it would be the same

using white cement, mixed with lime we avoid the gray color that some people don't like: it has the color of sand, like old mortar ... but the cement hardens faster and allows thick joints between ill-fitting stones

with too slow lime, if the stones are ill-adjusted it settles too much and the wall tilts before being finished

Completely agree, it reminded me of what our teachers passed on to us in class, and damn it we talked about this crushed pouzolane (we even went to Pompeii ...)


In short, at this point, as usual, the final remark is:
In principle, it shouldn't be us who choose the "technical solution that is going well", but it which imposes itself on us in fact depending on the problem to be solved (hence Bidouille's grumbling?).

... nice, without targeting anyone it requires a little humility! (( : Lol: )
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seb1000
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by seb1000 » 02/05/13, 18:10

the technical solution is not imposed on me so easily :)

on average, your opinions do not advise me against lime NHL, and it is it which seems to me the most appropriate, taking into account all of the many constraints and concerns.

if all goes well, start of work in 1 week ...
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by Obamot » 02/05/13, 19:01

tsss ... without wanting to give new advice, since everything has already been said:

1) there is no answer to the question of the binder that was used to mount this wall!

2) and de facto there is no diagnosis!

3) therefore no possibility of deciding "with what" to do this rehabilitation.

4) So before anticipating, you would first have to find different precise causes: why the wall is falling apart, what is it made of, why the first repair went wrong, what type of binder should you choose in fine?

5) If I had no experience, I would not go into such a task on my own. There will be no "right to make mistakes". (It seems to me that history is repeating itself since there has already been a first patchwork that messed up).

So yes, I'm not targeting anyone in particular, but "The technical solution that imposes itself»Also applies to this case!

Anyway, good luck anyway ... (Although "luck" shouldn't have anything to do with this type of case.)
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by Obamot » 02/05/13, 19:58

PS: my last word, we do not see very well how we could make a reinforcing mesh of 2m X 25m long cleanly - and respecting the minimum ad hoc thickness of covering - other than held in hydraulic concrete! : Cheesy: : Shock:
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seb1000
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by seb1000 » 02/05/13, 23:36

Obamot wrote:tsss ... without wanting to give new advice, since everything has already been said:

1) there is no answer to the question of the binder that was used to mount this wall!

2) and de facto there is no diagnosis!

3) therefore no possibility of deciding "with what" to do this rehabilitation.

4) So before anticipating, you would first have to find different precise causes: why the wall is falling apart, what is it made of, why the first repair went wrong, what type of binder should you choose in fine?

5) If I had no experience, I would not go into such a task on my own. There will be no "right to make mistakes". (It seems to me that history is repeating itself since there has already been a first patchwork that messed up).



1) 2) and 3) -> test with HCl expected, but anyway you don't need to be a pro to see that it's a simple earth or lime mortar + (...)
and (...) can be so much that without a chemistry lab I could not determine them (earth, sand, oil, beer, blood, urine ...)

4) the wall does not fall apart, in any case no more than any wall which needs to be joined correctly on a regular basis, and which would have been foolishly patched up with a cement coating placed like a pig. the cause of the problem appears to be an unusual charge buildup and insufficient drainage.

5) I don't like tinkering on this kind of work, so no tinkering is planned.
but one factor may have gone too far in your memories: my budget for this work is 500 euros max, or else I stop eating (properly). : Lol:
and in life you have to do what you can with what you have.
at worst, will have to start again next year ... : Cry:


and I'm not against a dose of luck, at least on the weather side during the work.
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by Obamot » 03/05/13, 00:12

A budget is something over a given period of time!

So it's not static. There I do not think it can do it (formwork + treili + sand / gravel / cement, etc.)

So if it's € 500 a year, wait for the number of years it takes to do it the right way! Because given his condition, it is better to do nothing, than to aggravate the situation, right? But it is you who sees, difficult to judge the urgency without having been there, otherwise I would take a credit. But let's say that for technical questions, it seems to me that the trick has been done. After that it is a question of responsibility, it is more the responsibility of the members of a forum. :|
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seb1000
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by seb1000 » 05/05/13, 12:09

I don't think the wall will fall tomorrow or even in the month.

but i realize i can be wrong :)

and if the wall falls, with the flow of the current river, it will block and there the damage to me and to the neighbor will be of another order.

so unfortunately i will have to deal with it.

I will keep you informed of the progress of the work.

I have 2 small questions left: the width of the drainage and the depth.

1) the width? I am tempted to do it 50cm wide.

2) depth? I think that the deepest point of my drainage should not be lower than the maximum level of the river + an additional margin of safety.

am i right?
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by Obamot » 14/05/13, 01:35

Excavate to make a drainage? With a wall in such a state, some are not good!

: Shock: And surely not legal. In case of a glitch, that's all for your apple there ...

Obamot wrote:3) as far as foundations are concerned, there is no reason to question it given the location.


... so especially no drainage, too dangerous given the state of the wall !!!!!!

I would not dare dig either in the river bed (big civil engineering work) ditto inland side (especially not ...) and this step before having DONE this new wall ... ( If it is necessary, I see that we are still in the groping and that an estimate has still not been established by a pro) ° _O

As Chatelot said:

chatelot16 wrote:before believing that the evacuation of water is the miracle solution it would be necessary to see the whole situation!


We were talking about reparation, the drainage in addition, all at 500 roros - that is to say that repairing such a wall over 25 meters, will cost much more than that - so we forget right away, it is a responsibility that you do not can endorse alone, it's another price too ... Don't dream!

To make a drainage, you have to shore everything from the other bank, if not the house: splash ... in the water ...! Without that (with a wall that swells a little) it's not even an option. seen?

Otherwise, make a quote from an approved company and we will talk about it again ...
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seb1000
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by seb1000 » 20/05/13, 19:05

you are many to amuse me.

Once the inevitable expenses have been paid, at the end of the month, you have several thousand euros left?
With us, we have just 300 euros left, and for a little that we have an unexpected, there are 0.

I'm not saying that to complain (because my lifestyle suits me well), but to bring your feet back to earth, at least on my land.

so my budget is 500 euros, and I have to deal with it before it falls into the river and the financial consequences are of another order of magnitude.

with us elbow grease and courage compensate for the small salary. :D

some corrections, because I see that errors creep in as and that they are taken up by others.

- the wall to be repaired is only 4m long.
- the house is not resting on this wall, but I fear the accumulation of humidity at the foot of this wall which could go up into the house
- disassembling the wall presents no danger to my health because it leans on the river side, and cannot fall on me. I also had 2 experts on the phone, who told me that I had done well to do this to limit the risk of the wall falling. at the same time it seems obvious: the constraint behind the wall is removed.


and new:
There is an expert mandated by my insurance who comes free Wednesday morning to see if the repairs can be taken care of because of the exceptional bad weather of my region this year ... fingers crossed.
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by Obamot » 20/05/13, 19:42

First of all, I don't really like the aggressive tone, given the pain that everyone takes to help you.

And then it seemed to me that the work should already be finished: in short, let's move on ... : Lol:

The priority of priorities: and what to do before your expert comes. It is to uproot the arbutus that grows along the wall ... Because for sure, the roots will push the wall by swelling effect ... If this has not already been done, nevertheless it is the first thing the expert will see: and there he will take him for negligence.

So on the one hand it is something to do imperatively in view of the situation, and moreover, the expert risks using it TO NOT compensate you (if you know what I mean ... )

In addition, calling on a "free" expert appointed by your insurance is double-edged. Because indeed, these "work" for the insurance and on every occasion that it is possible AGAINST "The insured". Which means that you will not be able to really take advantage of another risk or what do I know later - about this specific problem of your wall - since you will already be in their crosshairs (so in their database ... that they are exchanged between "insurance" companies, if need be, if by chance you change ...).

So it is just as imperative that the expert encrypts the work to be carried out, that you execute it (since if I understand correctly it will be you who will do the work) and that afterwards it will be advisable that you ABSOLUTELY bring the expert back to him show the work done, so that your insurance takes it into account, so that if by chance there was to be a problem, you would have proved that you would have done "Everything we could ask of you in terms of" risk management "", and then in a second case, it would be covered by insurance, which would have no choice but to cover a possible loss: and above all you could sleep peacefully.

Now let us come to the problem of money, which you have raised more than once. Neither me nor anyone in this forum are not concerned by your financial situation - we simply make you attentive to the technical questions relating to the problem - and there is not a problem of money (as already explained, but really it is you who do not understand). The problem is, no matter how much it costs, these are works that are to be done, because not to execute them would put forward RT civil liability, if there were to be victims in the event of an accident, and it would be deemed that the investigation would demonstrate that you had not done the work required by the situation. And believe me or not, but if it were to go to court in a sad situation like this, the judge would not care that your income is modest: it's really not their problem. So if I shake you with that, it is so that you become aware of the real angle of attack of the problem, and not that you come to tell us about your personal situation to which WE ARE ALL SENSITIVE that you know it well (then even though we are very sorry not to be able to do anything individually, we all have our concerns ...).

Last point, if you want to do the work by roof itself, after removing the arbustre, you will absolutely have to remove all the mosses that we see on the photos, because it is also one of the possible causes that has damaged to the hanging of the first repair. And you have to be careful with these lichens, because even if we think we have removed and scraped them all, there is still some microscopically left in the rock - and that repels whatever happens as soon as moisture arrives by capillarity, either from the ground or from the wall itself, waterlogged by the river itself - so the only way to get rid of it is toabrade the area (the surface of the stones) with an angle grinder or whatever => just scraping is not enough! Even less losing money on defoamer, bleach or whatever - this life form resists EVERYTHING. It is one of the oldest forms of life on the planet, for billions of years (?) It has been able to develop all the strategies, even the most unimaginable, to seek to win colonize territories ... It's almost indestructible, even with acid it comes back.

Then you have to dust it off and then treat it (it is from the algae family, so it is microscopic and it can start again even under concrete).

Finally, do some mixing and adhesion tests with the concrete you will be making. By not forgetting to put a sufficiently thick wire mesh there (which you will rust to obtain a better adhesion, if so ...) and which will play the role of a frame. Reinforcement that should not be forgotten to cover with the regulatory thickness of about 1 inch of cement at least (for the right mixture, see the post of Chatelot). Do tests before, especially application and mixing speed (hydraulic cement) because don't forget that the implementation - to keep it going - is a real job! Possibly goes to a construction site to see how they do it and asks for advice, it does not eat bread: and we always learn things ...
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