Laigret project: experiments

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C moa
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Laigret project: experiments




by C moa » 04/10/08, 20:13

Hi everybody,
Some news from the front !!! We had a lot of contacts and discussions this week. We have identified several technical points that we think are interesting to share with you.

I created this post so that we could regroup the more technical points related to the Laigret project.

In a few days, I hope to be able to summarize all the elements contained in the documents we have already collected.

Grougrou, thank you for checking that I do not say too much nonsense .... : Wink:

So here, I start:
1) A few weeks ago, we got closer to a laboratory of the INRA of Montpellier which conducts research on subjects close to the Laigret project. We managed to discuss together last Friday and a lot of points were mentioned:
- First of all, I do not hide the fact that the person I had was very surprised by what I told him about, but as the institute and Dr Laigret are serious people, he could only deepen the subject with the following remarks;
- The strain: according to him, we must find the exact strain to have the best chance of success but given the number of different perfringens, he thinks that it can be difficult. He told me that it may have to discuss with the Pastor Institute of Tunis because they were able to keep the strain (I'll come back a little later);
- The medium: In most substrates, there is a fierce competition between micro-organisms (especially in sewage sludge) and nothing that this element can block the development of the bacterium as interesting and effective as it is . But, as a reminder, Dr. Laigret states that he used perfringens alone, so he sterilized in one way or another the substrates on which he worked before inserting the perfringens.
- The oils and their residues: it is the ideal substrate to start because it is a quasi sterile environment naturally. Indeed, as he rightly pointed out to me, an oil could be kept for years without mold.
- The lab: according to him, even if the perfringens is not necessarily very dangerous, there will be constraints related to its pathogenic aspect. According to him, you need a P2 lab and that they do not have today. I told him that we had to see in which framework we could eventually complete the infrastructure of his lab.
- In conclusion he is surprised and would like to have a little doc to watch all that.

2) We had a contact also with ESAIP whose 3th years are very recent. They have a scientific project to do so the teaching team will propose the subject to engineering students. They will be able to deepen the documentary aspects and especially to seek if other schools / universities / labs work on a similar subject. They know that there is a lab at IUT Angers working on oil mill residues. They seek to value them from yeast so they certainly have the equipment and skills to conduct experiments. Case to follow ...

3) Finally, we had a contact with the Pasteur Institute of Tunis. Initially, it was mainly a question of whether they had kept the A 5029 strain. From threads to needles, we learned a lot of interesting things about perfringens:
- First of all, the Pasteur Institute of Tunis is still working on the Perfringens. Unfortunately, they do not have a type A strain, so they do not have the A 5029.
- Perfringens is classified in several types (from A to E). The one that interests us belongs to category A. What characterizes the type is the pathogenic aspect of the bacterium. For A (this confirms what we already know), it is the bacterium responsible for gas gangrene. Once the type established, the strains are classified according to their toxicity that is to say according to the volume of rejected secretions. Maybe the strain A 5029 is more efficient than the others but can be that we can find another equivalent. This leaves hope if we can not find the exact strain.
- They confirm that working on oil residue would be interesting because we do not really know what to do today. Especially in Tunisia where the production of olive oil is very important.
- Pasteur Institute of Tunis works on both the medical aspects and on the environmental aspects and surprise !!! They would be very interested to work with us on the subject !!! It might be interesting to work with them because they master the perfringens, they have appropriate infrastructure and probably almost all the necessary equipment.

4) For its part Grougrou ​​has contacted many schools and / or universities that do the environment, they may have equipped labs on which we are likely to support us. We are anxiously waiting for them to come back to him. He also found a supplier of bacteria / bacilli. We will very quickly know if they have this bacteria in reserve.

That's it, you know everything, and that seems to me to be good news.
It also brings other questions aspects licensing / protection of works and financing / project structure.

Looking forward to reading you,
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carburologue
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by carburologue » 05/10/08, 09:25

ah yeah, congratulations, anyway there are some who have more ideas ... not like some forums : Evil:
bravo econology :P

otherwise I allow myself a little parenthesis to the discussion, when we find mold on fat, what bacteria it comes ???
is it normal that the fat in a closed jar ferment by itself ???
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by phil53 » 05/10/08, 13:04

Congratulations on this summary.
This famous strain A 5029 could not be found where there are cases of gas gangrene?
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by Christophe » 05/10/08, 13:20

Excellent work C moa (and grougour)!

Me who feared that it does not advance since our cat on skype, here I am pleasantly surprised!

Image

When the labs express their interest, the fact that we are (for the moment) simple "individuals" does not pose a problem for them? It was what you feared a lot during this chating so a priori it does not seem so restrictive.

Now nothing prevents to think, in parallel with the legal aspect that one wants to give to the project.

For my part I will be favorable to the creation (it's not too early some say) of an association but not limited to Laigret.

The main purpose of this association would be to demonstrate the technical and economic feasibility of some solutions and then disseminate the results, or even participate in the development of full-scale demonstrator (because it's still the ultimate goal!)! The Laigret process would only be one of these solutions.

I have just reopened this subject that I had frozen a few weeks:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/projet-lai ... t6109.html
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C moa
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by C moa » 06/10/08, 00:00

carburologue wrote:ah yeah, congratulations, anyway there are some who have more ideas ... not like some forums : Evil:
bravo econology :P
thank you for your support : Mrgreen:

otherwise I allow myself a little parenthesis to the discussion, when we find mold on fat, what bacteria it comes ???
is it normal that the fat in a closed jar ferment by itself ???
I think that the fat is not as pure as the oils, from there to know which bacterium is involved .... I think it is necessary to take samples and call the experts : Mrgreen:

Small greedy information, one day that I bought jams at the market, the merchant taught me that it was not possible to mold jam. I told her that it had already happened to me and she said that I had to lick the spoons I used between two samples (well yes I'm greedy : Oops: ). So, I polluted the pot !!!
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by C moa » 06/10/08, 00:04

Christophe wrote:When the labs express their interest, the fact that we are (for the moment) simple "individuals" does not pose a problem for them? It was what you feared a lot during this chating so a priori it does not seem so restrictive.
Well, honestly, I did not really introduce myself as individuals, but rather as a working group on the subject whose structure was being created (that's right, eh : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: ).
At the Pastor Institute, at first I said that we were in contact with the INRA and suddenly they agreed to pass me the doctors in charge of the microbio and suddenly the doctors did not ask questions .
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by C moa » 06/10/08, 00:06

phil53 wrote:This famous strain A 5029 could not be found where there are cases of gas gangrene?
This is indeed one of the ways that we can explore with the lab if no supplier has.
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by gegyx » 06/10/08, 00:21

If perfringens A 5029 is very dangerous, and must be handled in P2 lab, I wonder about the purpose of this discovery?

Recuperation oil is simmered with adequate perfringens.
He is guzzling, and expels oil.
And after, what do we do with this oil?
If it is to make it use by everyone, it will be necessary to check the absence of perfringens at the exit of manufacture, and to eliminate it. By irradiation?

The other solution is to make a closed circuit and burn oil directly at the exit, to turn a turbine.
There will always be a health risk.

Not easy for eco-briolers.

: Shock:
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by C moa » 06/10/08, 09:37

gegyx wrote:If perfringens A 5029 is very dangerous, and must be handled in P2 lab, I wonder about the purpose of this discovery?
Firstly, perfringens is present everywhere in general (in soils, manure, manure ...) and type A in particular. It is generally the most widespread.

For more explanations, you can read the following links:
- http://www.livestock.novartis.com/pdf/1501-037-05_Q&A_final.pdf ;
- http://icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2005/july/0706.pdf
- http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_perfringens;

Having to use a P2 lab just means that you need to take extra precautions when compared to a basic lab. These precautions have been presented to us in another subject, we are far, far from P4 labs where you need airlock, rooms with depressors.

In addition, the fact that this bacterium is immobile and develops in anaerobic environment makes life easier because it seems difficult to have external contamination.

Recuperation oil is simmered with adequate perfringens.
He is guzzling, and expels oil.
And after, what do we do with this oil?
Ben the ideal is to sell it : Mrgreen: to earn money and continue our experiments on other substrates and help develop other econo- mic projects.
If it is to make it use by everyone, it will be necessary to check the absence of perfringens at the exit of manufacture, and to eliminate it. By irradiation?
As much as I think that if it works the process will be quite basic, as much I doubt that it is profitable and judicious to have it used by everyone.
As for the presence of perfringens in the crude, it is the experiments that we will tell. Remember that for him the crude is a waste not a food source so there is little risk that it remains. In addition this crude must be refined, distilled ... and here too it would surprise me that he survives the shock : Lol: .
The other solution is to make a closed circuit and burn oil directly at the exit, to turn a turbine.
There will always be a health risk.
Again, it is the experiments that tell us but given the few data we have on the cut of this crude, I have some doubts that this is possible.

Not easy for eco-briolers.
I hope not to shock anyone by saying that but I think that for this subject, we must forget the DIY.
We will not do a lab in a garage or at the bottom of a garden !!!
we will call on professionals who have the equipment and the skills and above all who know perfectly the associated risks. It's up to us to find the financing to order these studies !!!
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by Christophe » 06/10/08, 11:26

C moa wrote:Well, honestly, I did not really introduce myself as individuals, but rather as a working group on the subject whose structure was being created (that's right, eh : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: ).
At the Pastor Institute, at first I said that we were in contact with the INRA and suddenly they agreed to pass me the doctors in charge of the microbio and suddenly the doctors did not ask questions .


Ah, what a talent! Note: you did not lie :)

Image

We will not do a lab in a garage or at the bottom of a garden !!!


We not, but the ultimate goal in my head at least, is anyway to propose mini production unit not? It's too early to tell whether it'll be for particular ... I see quite a trick to the municipalities, departments, regions ...
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