Thermal wind turbine?

[sicetaitsimple]

I gathered in a single PDF with recent updates everything I could gather about the thermal wind turbine: https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Systeme ... ulique.pdf

I will not comment on the text, but at least you should modify the title of the document "Wind system for direct heat production using the Joule effect (heat produced by hydraulic brake)"
Unless a hydraulic brake system is now called a "Joule effect" system, which would have escaped me....

[BaudouinLabrique]

I gathered in a single PDF with recent updates everything I could gather about the thermal wind turbine: https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Systeme ... ulique.pdf

I will not comment on the text, but at least you should modify the title of the document "Wind system for direct heat production using the Joule effect (heat produced by hydraulic brake)"
Unless a hydraulic brake system is now called a "Joule effect" system, which would have escaped me....

Passage taken from a text that I had already linked:

"The wind turbine with hydraulic brake"

"The "classic" version of a heat-producing wind turbine converts rotational kinetic energy directly into heat by creating friction in the water, via the use of a device called "hydraulic brake" or "Joule machine". A heat generator based on this principle is quite simply akin to a mixer or a wind-powered paddle wheel, inserted into a heat-insulated (i.e. thermally insulated) water tank. Due to the friction induced in the water molecules, the mechanical energy transmitted by the blades is converted into heat. The water thus heated can then supply a building for heating or washing linen and the concept could easily be transposed to factories whose industrial processes require relatively low temperatures. "
https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html

[sicetaitsimple]

Confusion between "Joule machine", which made it possible to demonstrate the relationship between mechanical work and heat production, which indeed is the principle of a "thermal wind turbine"....
and "Joule effect", which is the production of heat linked to the passage of a current in a conductor, which would be exactly the opposite, that is to say a wind generator which would heat water via resistances!

But you can leave your title as it is, personally it doesn't bother me, it just doesn't mean anything!

[BaudouinLabrique]

Confusion between "Joule machine", which made it possible to demonstrate the relationship between mechanical work and heat production, which indeed is the principle of a "thermal wind turbine"....
and "Joule effect", which is the production of heat linked to the passage of a current in a conductor, which would be exactly the opposite, that is to say a wind generator which would heat water via resistances!
But you can leave your title as it is, personally it doesn't bother me, it just doesn't mean anything!

Certainly the word "'machine joule" rather than "joule effect" would have been more appropriate (as in one of the reference texts on the sketch on the first page: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html

For the sake of clarity, I have therefore adopted the following title in the document produced: "Wind system for direct heat production
using heat produced by hydraulic brake"

[BaudouinLabrique]

PS

The wise remark of sicetaitsimple allowed me to clarify the following.

In fact, there was confusion between "joule effect" (electricity) and the effect (by hydraulic brake) produced by the machine of the same Joule, but in another experiment:

« Joule's experience [”Joule machine”] is an experiment consisting in agitating a fluid by giving it a known work and measuring the resulting temperature rise by viscous friction [or hydraulic brake].
Originally carried out by James Prescott Joule, the fluid being water and the work provided by the rotation of blades driven by the fall of a mass [here by the movement of the wind turbine], the experiment measured the energy that 1 g of water had to be supplied to raise its temperature by 1°C. More generally, it has made it possible to establish the equivalence between work (mechanical energy) and heat (thermal energy). ".
(see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exp%C3%A9rience_de_Joule)

In fact, the discoverer of the "Joule effect" ("thermal manifestation of electrical resistance that occurs when an electric current passes through any conductive material", Wikipedia tells us, is therefore the same person who also discovered the heat production system and which consisted "agitating a fluid with known work and measuring the resulting temperature rise by viscous friction [or hydraulic brake]" (Wikipedia) and whose question in the operation of the thermal wind turbine

I therefore adapted the wording of the link, the internal title and the content of the study carried out and which is therefore the subject of this topic: https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Systeme ... ulique.pdf

Thanks to sicetaitsimple !

[sicetaitsimple]

This Mr. Joule has indeed worked quite a bit in the field of energy, in recognition of which it is his name that has been retained for the corresponding unit in the International System of Units.

[izentrop]

I did not follow the case.
If I understand correctly: the production of heat is done by eddy currents with an efficiency greater than 90%. But a wind turbine is really profitable only at a hundred meters above the ground and that obliges to bring the heating pipes to the machine.

Even well insulated, the benefit of the start is lost in the complexity of the installation and in the length of the pipes?

An efficient alternator also has an efficiency of 90%, an electric heater 100%. It is enough to provide a high voltage to use a small section of copper and obtain low distribution losses... lower than pulling 100 m of heating tubes back and forth and will also have to take into account the energy necessary for the pump of traffic ?

[Obamot]

What I don't understand is how to engage the rotation, which is already not easy to do even in windy valley bottoms (like in Valais where most of the time the simple wind turbines are stopped) j I have the impression that the viscosity of the water must slow down the start).
Now the cost, I had inquired about medium-depth geothermal energy — which suddenly works guaranteed all year round, to the point that the Swiss are in the process of mapping their subsoil to exploit the deposit — it is “only” around 20 € to go down to -000 m where the required temperature reigns 400 days / year

At medium altitude (there's a thread that talks about it) you don't even need to drill to have domestic hot water all year round… thermal solar panels in an insulated box are enough.

On the other hand, I like the idea for its concept. Perhaps we can recall the yield figures and other one-year production forecasts?

[BaudouinLabrique]

I did not follow the case.
If I understand correctly: the production of heat is done by eddy currents with an efficiency greater than 90%. But a wind turbine is really profitable only at a hundred meters above the ground and that obliges to bring the heating pipes to the machine.

Even well insulated, the benefit of the start is lost in the complexity of the installation and in the length of the pipes?

An efficient alternator also has an efficiency of 90%, an electric heater 100%. It is enough to provide a high voltage to use a small section of copper and obtain low distribution losses... lower than pulling 100 m of heating tubes back and forth and will also have to take into account the energy necessary for the pump of traffic ?

1° These are not "eddy currents" but the agitation of the water (hydraulic brake) as in a mixer which then produces heat.
2° There is no circulation pump because the movement takes place naturally (from bottom to top, see sketch in the file)
3° The pipes will be insulated and additionally buried in highly insulated concrete

By reading the file you will learn that it has made it possible to heat houses (the water reaches at least 45°)
Please read it carefully because you will understand that I will not spend my time putting here what is in it
https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Systeme ... ulique.pdf

[BaudouinLabrique]

What I don't understand is how to engage the rotation, which is already not easy to do even in windy valley bottoms (like in Valais where most of the time the simple wind turbines are stopped) j I have the impression that the viscosity of the water must slow down the start).

It certainly slows down but using a Savonius rotor does not pose a problem: it is the best solution from all points of view:
1. the Savonius rotor has the advantage of spinning much earlier,
2. should only be put on low altitude 4-8m,
3. be best suited in the city as they take advantage of disturbed winds and regardless of direction)
4. allow the tank to be placed on the ground or better buried and insulated.

Details of the advantage of the Savonius and even better if coupled asynchronously to a Darrieus H rotor: an asynchronous Darrieus H rotor (placed higher) to achieve this
to increase the yield by 20 to 30%.
(see http://www.retrouversonnord.be/HYBRIDE- ... RRIEUS.pdf).

Now the cost, I had inquired about medium-depth geothermal energy — which suddenly works guaranteed all year round, to the point that the Swiss are in the process of mapping their subsoil to exploit the deposit — it is “only” around 20 € to go down to -000 m where the required temperature reigns 400 days / year

The problem of deep geothermal energy is above all ground movements, especially in the plains due to climate change; moreover in Belgium there are old galleries of mines and which make the ground move. This then leads to the highly costly breakage of the vertical collectors.
I have a horizontal geothermal heat pump whose COP (coefficient of performance) is a little below that of vertical geothermal energy (moreover extremely expensive and therefore the amortization is then done over a much longer period).
NB The thermal wind turbine judiciously reinforces any heat pump (see file) and this is also part of my project

At medium altitude (there's a thread that talks about it) you don't even need to drill to have domestic hot water all year round… thermal solar panels in an insulated box are enough.

There are very few concrete cases here in Belgium of heat pumps in vertical geothermal energy because of the risks and the cost

On the other hand, I like the idea for its concept. Perhaps we can recall the yield figures and other one-year production forecasts?

PERFORMANCE (excerpts from the file):

« Renewable energy production is almost entirely devoted to generating electricity. Yet the energy we use
the most is in the form of heat, which can only be produced indirectly by photovoltaic panels or wind turbines with a fairly low yield. »
(see https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)

BETTER YIELD (LESS LOSSES)

Without the (penalizing) intermediary of electricity production to generate heat,
there are therefore significantly fewer losses.
Indeed, “…converting wind or solar energy directly into heat (or mechanical energy) can be more efficient than when an energy conversion takes place.
This means that fewer solar or wind energy converters
is needed and therefore less space and resources – to provide a given amount of heat. (Added green coloring)

"[...] heat-producing wind turbines prove to be the most efficient in decentralized installations, dedicated to supplying heat to an off-grid household or ideally a village, a small town, or even an industrial area. »
« In 2013, a study on a prototype produced similar results,
and estimated system efficiency at 91% »
(see http://www.bulipi-eee.tuiasi.ro/archive ... 4_2013.pdf)

Furthermore, " By comparing these data with the heat needs of a new, high-performance 120 m² building heated to modern comfort standards, they came to the conclusion that a heat-producing wind turbine could cover 40 to 75% of annual heat needs. heating (fluctuating according to the level of energy performance of the building) »
(see https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)