Uh do not worry about us too it's wood thoroughly thoroughly!
The deom turns 24 / 24 and the stove in the living room 16 / 24!
The buffer "simply" adds to the PCs and preheats the DHW. Most of the energy comes from wood!
Solar thermal buffer: optimization and repair
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
Relaunch of the subject via self-construction-and-do-it-yourself/university-project-makazi-t9596.html
Christophe wrote:minguinhirigue wrote:- Inter-seasonal active water storage: various Swiss and German works on very large tanks, extra-insulated, buried or combined with phase-change materials.
We have in our 1981 house a 70 000L buffer see:
- Pictures of our solar house
- Photos and repairs of our solar thermal buffer
For different reasons I think it is still the best solution econologically speaking ... provided that the buffer is not steel because there is extra cost!
Obviously the total autonomy is difficult to obtain unless you are in the south of France ... but in all cases, this solar buffering has to be combined with a climatic house, with solar gains and inertia interesting and well insulated otherwise it is lost lost!
Do a search with the term "thermal buffer"and read about MCP this topic: phase change thermal buffer with palm oil
Palm oil (an MPC 100% natural unlike petroleum paraphine, which, moreover, are much more expensive) to 50 / 50 in water can double the heat capacity of an equivalent volume of water between 50 and 30 ° C and above all it buffers at the melting stage, towards 40 ° C.
dedeleco wrote:econology presents treasures and experiences that I discover little by little!
Remarkable this house a little old with its storage of 70m3, true insulated swimming pool and its old solar collectors.
This makes it possible to measure the great difficulty of inter-seasonal storage without new technology (heat your pool at 80 ° C to reach the ton of fuel, hello the sauna) !!!!!!!
Too much heat in the basement disturbs the foundations seriously.
Christophe wrote:Hey yes there is a lot of stuff on econology but must find them, I often lose myself ...
Last summer, due to optimization at different levels, we climbed, I believe, 62-63 ° C maximum (T ° measured at depth 2m, 1m bottom)
In our case, beyond 65-70 ° C I think the gains of the day are completely erased by the losses of the night ...
To climb too high in T ° with a concrete casing is also not ideal because it may accelerate the wear of the tank!
I would like to improve it with palm oil but given the volumes involved, for there to be an effect, we must put in the 5000 € oil ...
This spring, I cleaned our solar bay (dust and soot) and I slightly improved the waterproofing, by attaching a few "parting lines" left in the open. We will see if this will improve performance.
These remarks should be put in the other subjects cited in my previous message.
dedeleco wrote:In our case, beyond 65-70 ° C I think the gains of the day are completely erased by the losses of the night ...
In theory, the time constant of a calorimeter (this tank) does not depend on the temperature but the evaporation of the water (huge above 60 ° C) accelerates the losses except recondensation of the steam on well isolated surface which returns to the tank without loss of heat.
Christophe wrote:The evaporation depends mainly on the saturation and T ° of the air of contact with the surface of the water.
It is said (piscinistes) that a room air at + 2 ° C / water temperature avoids any evaporation!
In our case this evaporation was important when we moved (big holes in the slab covering the buffer), but that's why I plugged these holes with hydraulic mortar and waterproof plastic.
It is presented in detail on this subject: solar-energy-optimization-of-our-thermal-buffer-t4517.html
Currently I do not know how it behaves "in the buffer" I know that the next room is no longer "tropical" as it was before.
Ideally it would be necessary to measure the T ° / RH of the air of the buffer but good difficult to make and reduced interest. I think that it is saturated in moisture, thus blocking an additional evaporation, even if there is necessarily condensation and thus loss on the upper slab.
FYI, the buffer is at the moment 35.9 ° C.
dedeleco wrote:At the physical pif the loss is enormous by convection condensation via the upper slab except insulation and heating of this slab at 40 ° C (with the ashes of the volcano!) And much more at 60 ° C.
Christophe wrote:Yes except that the slab is IN the house ... so the losses contribute to the heating of the house.
There is 40 cm of polystyrene on the top (only 10 on the sides but impossible to improve). Look at the pictures on the subject of the stamp.
Loose insulation on the right here:
The stamp is a cased cube embedded in a traditional masonry piece (it is 2 nested cubes if you want). Between 2 is 10 cm of insulation.
At the level of the foundation slab I do not know if it's isolated.
Hard to know. One thing is certain: the constraints on the foundations are much greater than in a house without a buffer.
ps: I copy sticks our exchanges on the other subject
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
Thermal losses on buffer
Hello everybody
I am new, and I am very (very) interested in solar thermal.
I react to your previous comments because I had fun calculating
the thermal losses of the 70 000 l buffer from Christophe:
Dimensional assumption 4 x 5.8 x 3 m; V = 69.6m3 and S = 105.2m2
Hypothesis of Rth 2,5 is 10cm of polystyrene all around (I am a little arranged with the 40cm of the top by telling me that there is necessarily some thermal bridges) ...
With these assumptions, each degree of lost by the volume of water represents approximately 291 MJ or 81kWh => at 8 cents per kWh gas that makes us 6.5 Euros stored per degree.
(Note to Christophe, every time your tank goes up to 65 ° then down to 40 °, you have a check of 162 Euros in your cellar ... )
It should be noted that for each degree lost, the dissipated power also decreases, the delta temp water - temp atmosphere decreasing.
65 ° to 64 ° => 1895W loss
41 ° to 40 ° => 885W loss
A simple iterative calculation thus gives 67.7 days to go from 65 to 40, by the only thermal losses ..., with an 20 ° atmosphere
I good?
it confirms that storing water at 40 ° via phase change materials would bring a plus, it would reduce the loss by losses.
I have about MCP a track that I still need to explore
We can imagine that most of the losses come mainly from heating + ECS in the case of Christophe's house ...
In winter, it does not matter because it helps to heat the house
But in the summer ... A radiator like this, how does it manage to evacuate this surplus of energy?
In any case, thank you Christophe for giving us such accurate data.
it would be great if you could group all your measurements and findings
on one subject, it would help to make new instal.
Ex for me (poor egocentric that I am), I would like to know bcp:
On a sunny winter day, and more precisely December, how many are you?
that would help me to size my balloon for my future "possible" installation.
Congratulations to all for this magnificent forum which, I hope, will inspire a lot of people
Phiphi of the 42
I am new, and I am very (very) interested in solar thermal.
I react to your previous comments because I had fun calculating
the thermal losses of the 70 000 l buffer from Christophe:
Dimensional assumption 4 x 5.8 x 3 m; V = 69.6m3 and S = 105.2m2
Hypothesis of Rth 2,5 is 10cm of polystyrene all around (I am a little arranged with the 40cm of the top by telling me that there is necessarily some thermal bridges) ...
With these assumptions, each degree of lost by the volume of water represents approximately 291 MJ or 81kWh => at 8 cents per kWh gas that makes us 6.5 Euros stored per degree.
(Note to Christophe, every time your tank goes up to 65 ° then down to 40 °, you have a check of 162 Euros in your cellar ... )
It should be noted that for each degree lost, the dissipated power also decreases, the delta temp water - temp atmosphere decreasing.
65 ° to 64 ° => 1895W loss
41 ° to 40 ° => 885W loss
A simple iterative calculation thus gives 67.7 days to go from 65 to 40, by the only thermal losses ..., with an 20 ° atmosphere
I good?
it confirms that storing water at 40 ° via phase change materials would bring a plus, it would reduce the loss by losses.
I have about MCP a track that I still need to explore
We can imagine that most of the losses come mainly from heating + ECS in the case of Christophe's house ...
In winter, it does not matter because it helps to heat the house
But in the summer ... A radiator like this, how does it manage to evacuate this surplus of energy?
In any case, thank you Christophe for giving us such accurate data.
it would be great if you could group all your measurements and findings
on one subject, it would help to make new instal.
Ex for me (poor egocentric that I am), I would like to know bcp:
On a sunny winter day, and more precisely December, how many are you?
that would help me to size my balloon for my future "possible" installation.
Congratulations to all for this magnificent forum which, I hope, will inspire a lot of people
Phiphi of the 42
1 x
- Obamot
- Econologue expert
- posts: 28725
- Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
- Location: regio genevesis
- x 5538
Christophe wrote:K) This is the day is over! Behind me, we see a glass wool "stuffing" in the parts where it was impossible or difficult to place styrodur (especially wherever you touched the chimney ... you never know ...)
It is indeed essential! When extruded polystyrene is used, the air must not be passed between two panels, otherwise the insulation is very poor (according to the practical observation that as much air passes through an open door as fully open , by suction / transfer phenomenon relative to the temperature difference between volumes).
However, I do not understand why there should be thermal bridges. In a pool designed to be a thermal balloon, the concrete structure should not touch the walls in the perimeter (pinion) and should rest on an insulating substrate, right?
As for the pipes that pass through a slab, why did not choose to use a small perforator to open all around and then put a thermal insulation preventing contact with the slab?
By eliminating leakage, the full potential of the facility could be expressed.
But obviously, these are hypotheses because we do not really realize the real implementation, based on photos. And of course, when you buy a house, you have to take it "as it is". It is already excellent to have done all this work. Congratulations!!!
0 x
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
The tank is obviously isolated from the rest of the walls (mechanically against expansion and thermally against losses).
There is no direct contact (except the ground obviously, I do not know if the foundation slab is isolated I have no way of knowing ...).
But the thermal bridges are done (finally were done) via the air of the cellar ....
That was your question?
Before I intervene, you saw the holes, the air in the room next door was "tropical". So in these atmospheric conditions thermal bridges with condensation (please!) Are legion !!
It's not for nothing that "bibi is shrimp red" and that the photos are "hazy"!
There is no direct contact (except the ground obviously, I do not know if the foundation slab is isolated I have no way of knowing ...).
But the thermal bridges are done (finally were done) via the air of the cellar ....
That was your question?
Before I intervene, you saw the holes, the air in the room next door was "tropical". So in these atmospheric conditions thermal bridges with condensation (please!) Are legion !!
It's not for nothing that "bibi is shrimp red" and that the photos are "hazy"!
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
Phiphi42 is invited to read the many and varied links on storage on econology and google especially in English and German and in Canada, far ahead of nuclear France.
There is the thermal losses but also the investment needed to realize the storage system that keeps summer on winter!
The price becomes very high easily in addition to the clutter.
In addition these storage systems have losses that reduce the shelf life to a value too short in time!
Indeed everything is linear: duration that believes as the insulation thickness 10 times more with 1m insulation! (problem, the weight of water is excessive for the mechanical strength of the insulation full of air)
and by increasing the duration increases as the surface-to-volume ratio either as the dimension, or 700m3 will be kept 10 times longer hot and 100 times with 1m of insulation without thermal bridges !!
In addition, the heat needed by Christophe over an entire winter is about 10 times his buffer is about 700m3.
In this case it could keep all the winter heated water summer by solar collectors.
The difficulty is the price of this beautiful pool closed and unusable (to keep the heat) and the building to isolate it !!
We have a storage medium that does not cost anything: the earth under our feet, just holes to bring the heat on the winter time diffuse 3m about and so is kept pretty good for a volume of at least 1000m3 earth ( 25 holes) !!
This simple method of Canadian heated well in summer for winter runs at Drale Lansing in Canada:
http://www.dlsc.ca/DLSC_Brochure_f.pdf
http://www.dlsc.ca
144 holes at 35m on 30m diameter for 52 pavilions with 15m2 of sensors on the garage, at 1000m altitude with a cold continental climate !!
There are other solutions but more expensive for performance not better.
The solution of storing in water or other is expensive very often and not better to keep easily over long time.
The diffusion of the heat which advances by slowing down like the square root of the time is simple for long times and big volumes, indispensable in fact considering the necessary heat on a winter.
This is the ultimate renewable with summer wasted and free solar heat stored underground in a Canadian well for the winter, totally underestimated and neglected in France, and perpetual, without failure, without a fragile PAC with a limited life, and that works in Canada:
See all the links on the posts of these forums :
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post202574.html#202574
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post202400.html#202400
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post193851.html#193851
The price of costed drilling in Canada is lower than in France.
The summer solar heat is wasted in general, unusable and therefore we can afford to lose easily with summer sensors very cheap, and the reasoning to quantify the financial loss of heat lost in € does not make sense from the moment this summer heat is almost free.
It is necessary to reason with what remains in winter to free heat. looking at the fuel economy or nuclear, CO2, etc.
I think that the usual way of thinking while trying to lose as little as possible prevents to understand and to use this method of storage been for winter, in addition to the non comprehension of the diffusion of the heat, which makes it possible to store without isolating in appearance !!.
It is the renewable future capable of replacing for nuclear, oil, gas, coal and wood heating and without nuclear pollution, without CO2, without pollution and in perpetuity.
It works with different possibilities, as well as solar collectors for the winter.
I insist because it is very neglected as a renewable solution in France that claims not to be able to do without nuclear!
To say that the renewable can replace the nuclear is a monstrosity according to Sarkozy!
There is the thermal losses but also the investment needed to realize the storage system that keeps summer on winter!
The price becomes very high easily in addition to the clutter.
In addition these storage systems have losses that reduce the shelf life to a value too short in time!
Indeed everything is linear: duration that believes as the insulation thickness 10 times more with 1m insulation! (problem, the weight of water is excessive for the mechanical strength of the insulation full of air)
and by increasing the duration increases as the surface-to-volume ratio either as the dimension, or 700m3 will be kept 10 times longer hot and 100 times with 1m of insulation without thermal bridges !!
In addition, the heat needed by Christophe over an entire winter is about 10 times his buffer is about 700m3.
In this case it could keep all the winter heated water summer by solar collectors.
The difficulty is the price of this beautiful pool closed and unusable (to keep the heat) and the building to isolate it !!
We have a storage medium that does not cost anything: the earth under our feet, just holes to bring the heat on the winter time diffuse 3m about and so is kept pretty good for a volume of at least 1000m3 earth ( 25 holes) !!
This simple method of Canadian heated well in summer for winter runs at Drale Lansing in Canada:
http://www.dlsc.ca/DLSC_Brochure_f.pdf
http://www.dlsc.ca
144 holes at 35m on 30m diameter for 52 pavilions with 15m2 of sensors on the garage, at 1000m altitude with a cold continental climate !!
There are other solutions but more expensive for performance not better.
The solution of storing in water or other is expensive very often and not better to keep easily over long time.
The diffusion of the heat which advances by slowing down like the square root of the time is simple for long times and big volumes, indispensable in fact considering the necessary heat on a winter.
This is the ultimate renewable with summer wasted and free solar heat stored underground in a Canadian well for the winter, totally underestimated and neglected in France, and perpetual, without failure, without a fragile PAC with a limited life, and that works in Canada:
See all the links on the posts of these forums :
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post202574.html#202574
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post202400.html#202400
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post193851.html#193851
The price of costed drilling in Canada is lower than in France.
The summer solar heat is wasted in general, unusable and therefore we can afford to lose easily with summer sensors very cheap, and the reasoning to quantify the financial loss of heat lost in € does not make sense from the moment this summer heat is almost free.
It is necessary to reason with what remains in winter to free heat. looking at the fuel economy or nuclear, CO2, etc.
I think that the usual way of thinking while trying to lose as little as possible prevents to understand and to use this method of storage been for winter, in addition to the non comprehension of the diffusion of the heat, which makes it possible to store without isolating in appearance !!.
It is the renewable future capable of replacing for nuclear, oil, gas, coal and wood heating and without nuclear pollution, without CO2, without pollution and in perpetuity.
It works with different possibilities, as well as solar collectors for the winter.
I insist because it is very neglected as a renewable solution in France that claims not to be able to do without nuclear!
To say that the renewable can replace the nuclear is a monstrosity according to Sarkozy!
1 x
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
Re: Solar thermal buffer: optimization and repair
The situation in 2021, 14 years later: science-and-technology / thermal-buffer-to-avoid-surface-evaporation-of-hot-water-with-oil-or-another-blocker-t16964.html
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
Re: Thermal losses on buffer
Phiphi42 wrote:Hello everybody
I am new, and I am very (very) interested in solar thermal.
I react to your previous comments because I had fun calculating
the thermal losses of the 70 000 l buffer from Christophe:
Dimensional assumption 4 x 5.8 x 3 m; V = 69.6m3 and S = 105.2m2
Hypothesis of Rth 2,5 is 10cm of polystyrene all around (I am a little arranged with the 40cm of the top by telling me that there is necessarily some thermal bridges) ...
With these assumptions, each degree of lost by the volume of water represents approximately 291 MJ or 81kWh => at 8 cents per kWh gas that makes us 6.5 Euros stored per degree.
(Note to Christophe, every time your tank goes up to 65 ° then down to 40 °, you have a check of 162 Euros in your cellar ... )
It should be noted that for each degree lost, the dissipated power also decreases, the delta temp water - temp atmosphere decreasing.
65 ° to 64 ° => 1895W loss
41 ° to 40 ° => 885W loss
A simple iterative calculation thus gives 67.7 days to go from 65 to 40, by the only thermal losses ..., with an 20 ° atmosphere
I good?
it confirms that storing water at 40 ° via phase change materials would bring a plus, it would reduce the loss by losses.
I have about MCP a track that I still need to explore
We can imagine that most of the losses come mainly from heating + ECS in the case of Christophe's house ...
In winter, it does not matter because it helps to heat the house
But in the summer ... A radiator like this, how does it manage to evacuate this surplus of energy?
In any case, thank you Christophe for giving us such accurate data.
it would be great if you could group all your measurements and findings
on one subject, it would help to make new instal.
Ex for me (poor egocentric that I am), I would like to know bcp:
On a sunny winter day, and more precisely December, how many are you?
that would help me to size my balloon for my future "possible" installation.
Congratulations to all for this magnificent forum which, I hope, will inspire a lot of people
Phiphi of the 42
It seems to me that I missed this message from 2011 ... too bad in 10 years I could have taken precise measurements to refine this estimate ...
In any case level loss by evaporation I estimate it at about 300 kWh per year according to the loss of level observed 14 years later: science-and-technology / thermal-buffer-to-avoid-surface-evaporation-of-hot-water-with-oil-or-another-blocker-t16964.html
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
Re: Solar thermal buffer: optimization and repair
I'm reviving this topic because I'm finishing the insulation of the walls of the crawl space near the thermal pad renovation-real-estate-work/wall-insulation-of-a-sanitary-space-with-panels-polyurethane-pur-pir-t17287.html
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 0 Replies
- 3662 views
-
Last message by djej66
View the latest post
11/05/16, 19:03A subject posted in the forum : Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers
-
- 11 Replies
- 18785 views
-
Last message by swallowtail
View the latest post
24/11/13, 21:41A subject posted in the forum : Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers
-
- 32 Replies
- 36549 views
-
Last message by lilian07
View the latest post
07/07/18, 08:26A subject posted in the forum : Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers
-
- 20 Replies
- 18946 views
-
Last message by Cuicui
View the latest post
09/08/13, 11:58A subject posted in the forum : Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers
-
- 139 Replies
- 135038 views
-
Last message by cortejuan
View the latest post
15/12/20, 20:30A subject posted in the forum : Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers
Back to "Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers"
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 234 guests