Understand the world we live in?

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
humus
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by humus » 08/12/21, 09:31

Obamot wrote:
humus wrote:The missing model: at the scale of a community, at the scale of a country, at the scale of the planet?
This is the question you raise, if I understand correctly?
A common core of the type of economy on the scale of the planet seems to me necessary in the long term but there is no need to wait until the whole planet is in agreement to start. (we can wait a long time)

No not at all, my own thinking was already a question! I brought up the contradiction that arose from the search for intermediate models - those who live in the countryside and who only dream of going to the city and vice versa - in this conflicting approach, the “missing model” cannot correspond to the two groups, each with different needs! This is the difficulty ... We are on heavy trends and whose expectations collide.

So by definition as “missing model / s”These will always be missing as they are, those who conceptualize them will be in an endless race (or at best after a collapse, and not one of those that one would try to impose by therapeutic relentlessness, eh ) arrive directly at the “ideal model” BY SIMPLIFICATION it would be skipping steps ...

Because as it is, the missing model “Will always be a model that will postpone the collapse that we could do the same day until the next day” : Mrgreen: ... I don't see that a “missing model” could change the current and observed “true and correct” paradigm based on fictitious values. So until this is resolved, we will be chasing this “missing model”.

I think you must confuse “missing model” VS “ideal model” and I have modestly shown that for the ideal, it does not take the path. A simple example: at the moment, it's winter, it's very cold and we have to warm up, and already this is a very stupid reality that takes us away from the ideal model and which leaves all our forecasts on the ground. medium and long term! Will therefore force fate with the shortage of raw materials ... heating ... ( : Mrgreen: ) I'm not saying that “nothing is possible and blah-blah-blah”, the question is rather, will it happen when the people are ready for it (living with less comfort, a more balanced and fair world)

This will have a VERY STRONG impact on us over the next few decades ... And as we can see how the covid crisis is handled, if we relate this to the ideal model, it is not even in sight at the end of the tunnel ... I rather believe to “survivalism” as a first step (which will perhaps be a necessary step?) : roll: If you want to live easy (egotistically) there is an interest in living in a passive house, because the cost of fossil fuels will explode.

In fact I do not understand what you hear not missing model?
There is a desire to cross-hunt between town and country, OK
What does this missing model story do? a model of what? of society ? and if it is a model of society as much to be interested in an ideal model?
Frankly, I don't understand your concern about a missing model that would not be an ideal model.
What do you want this missing model to answer?
It lacks precision for me.

Otherwise, indeed, we are not ready for a voluntary depletion or reduction of fossils.
We know what to do, as you point out with the passive house.
yapuka ... : roll:
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by Janic » 08/12/21, 09:40

humus
So nothing forces us to submit to the determinism of growth, whether it is in us or not.
above all, nothing prevents you from trying, even if thousands of years of human history have not changed anything. It is almost as futile as trying to erase ONE spelling error in a book that is full of them and say to oneself I succeeded in correcting ONE mistake in the haraurthôgrafe: What a feat then!

Otherwise, indeed, we are not ready for a voluntary depletion or reduction of fossils.
nor the rest and replacing a one-eyed one with a blind one, it never improved the sight!
We know what to do, as you point out with the passive house.
yapuka ...
indeed, that's always positive, but that's not what will change the world, in all its diversity!
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by humus » 08/12/21, 10:04

Janic wrote:humus
So nothing forces us to submit to the determinism of growth, whether it is in us or not.
above all, nothing prevents you from trying, even if thousands of years of human history have not changed anything. It is almost as futile as trying to erase ONE spelling error in a book that is full of them and say to oneself I succeeded in correcting ONE mistake in the haraurthôgrafe: What a feat then!

Otherwise, indeed, we are not ready for a voluntary depletion or reduction of fossils.
nor the rest and replacing a one-eyed one with a blind one, it never improved the sight!
We know what to do, as you point out with the passive house.
yapuka ...
indeed, that's always positive, but that's not what will change the world, in all its diversity!

Fatalitas when you hold us : Mrgreen:
Everything is rotten and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, it's really too unfair! : Lol:
What a ball! : roll:
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by Janic » 08/12/21, 10:26

humus
Fatalitas when you hold us : Mrgreen:
Everything is rotten and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, it's really too unfair! : Lol:
What a ball! : roll:
Here you are, you begin to understand at last!
But you will have all the time you need in your life, to realize this fact, that the miserable small infectious microbes that we are, have only a derisory and vain role in an infinite whole that we just do not control!
Rabhi's Hummingbirds are a wonderful example of what everyone can do on their own level, but a ridiculous way to put out a forest fire all you need to do is follow the news. The expected climatic upheaval is taking its course, whether human stupidity has something to do with it or not, and playing the virtuous to give oneself a clear conscience is useless.
So to avoid the ambient depression, the stressed out invent for themselves a "wonderful future" world that they will have helped to build. Good for them, but it is only a dream, only.
I lived, a little, the 2nd war, the cold war where they were ready to throw their atomic bombs on the face, indifferent to their consequences, we went to the covid war which is no better and you think that with a blow of "magic fly" you will do better?
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by Ahmed » 08/12/21, 10:43

The competition referred to Janic above is indeed a characteristic of our societies which make us all competitors of one another, but it is in no way an essence linked to our psyche, to history and even less to our genes. Even today (sigh!) Reigns the minimum of solidarity essential to social functioning.
The current determinism of growth is exogenous, it results from the fact that it is value (and its increase) which is the real subject, of which we are only the agents.
Of course, in "sub-layer", the value is the thermodynamic translation of the maximum dissipation of energy (hence this imperative of growth), otherwise it would be impossible to understand the simple fact of its manifestation. And if we can not do anything against physical laws, there are possibilities to avoid being subjected to them as is currently the case and to adapt them to our advantage.
The reason for the ruin of the World is simple to understand: we are led to reduce our entropy in such a massive way and which is not justified other than for the reason mentioned above, that the general entropy increases in devastating proportions (according to in this the law of thermodynamics which establishes that the entropy of a system can only increase).
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by Obamot » 08/12/21, 10:58

humus wrote:In fact I do not understand what you hear not missing model? Anyone that does not flatten all the fundamentals, either a model latent in some minds or in the process of being conceptualized. The quest of those who, believing they are doing well, seek to replace the existing model, in an “opportunistic” way (missing because of transition or wobbly?)

There is a desire to cross-hunt between town and country, OK
What does this missing model story do? a model of what? of society ? and if it is a model of society as much to be interested in an ideal model? The model you see does not exist, so it is necessarily missing and it is not ideal until you have defined it, and it is not sure that being interested in the ideal model is the thing. that we must do first or simultaneously (such as establishing what should be done smoothly, to get out of our dependencies, and it is not an easy task, and a challenge for the WTO to put the countries of agreements, and as far as countries feel they are willing to go, assuming that there is no other way to do otherwise, which would already establish, that we are "on the ropes" (and way much worse than now)

Frankly, I don't understand your concern about a missing model that would not be an ideal model. see above and see all the literature on the subject, it is not the variations that are lacking. Since the ideal model should undoubtedly be “the best of all”, there will be competition if certain countries want to get out of the game. In either case, several models will be needed to achieve this, since everyone's needs are countries and their energy sources and supplies differ. All these reasons lead us to think that as it is, there can be no model defined as ideal.

What do you want this missing model to answer? not me, but to the needs that the said model suggests, starting by breaking the vicious circle of debt and fictitious values

It lacks precision for me. note that the above point is quite clear: there is something to deconstruct before building something new, it could be an idea, without wanting to be categorical, to deconstruct you have to find compatibilities, but the current inertias do not allow it maybe just not! Without being too mistaken, I think that the first step is to put in common in a database, everything that has been done on the subject, to extract the quintessence would already be a prerequisite, but already there, maybe speculations ... In short, to change the model you have to start by "changing the man", as long as this is a virtuous and "voluntary" step.

Otherwise, indeed, we are not ready for a voluntary depletion or reduction of fossils. indeed

We know what to do, as you point out with the passive house. without wanting to step forward too much, reducing any dependence binding us to the current model, is part of the solution, but this is where the shoe pinches, it will rub, on the one hand, brains seek to exploit new sources of sustainable energies, on the other hand, I am told at the headset (Ahmed), that by doing that we would only be doing therapeutic relentlessness and prolong / contribute to the agony of the existing system ...

yapuka ... : roll: Unhappy Yapukapa! : Mrgreen:


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humus
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by humus » 08/12/21, 16:00

Janic wrote:humus
Fatalitas when you hold us : Mrgreen:
Everything is rotten and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, it's really too unfair! : Lol:
What a ball! : roll:
Here you are, you begin to understand at last!
But you will have all the time you need in your life, to realize this fact, that the miserable small infectious microbes that we are, have only a derisory and vain role in an infinite whole that we just do not control!
Rabhi's Hummingbirds are a wonderful example of what everyone can do on their own level, but a ridiculous way to put out a forest fire all you need to do is follow the news. The expected climatic upheaval is taking its course, whether human stupidity has something to do with it or not, and playing the virtuous to give oneself a clear conscience is useless.
So to avoid the ambient depression, the stressed out invent for themselves a "wonderful future" world that they will have helped to build. Good for them, but it is only a dream, only.
I lived, a little, the 2nd war, the cold war where they were ready to throw their atomic bombs on the face, indifferent to their consequences, we went to the covid war which is no better and you think that with a blow of "magic fly" you will do better?


It is not worth focusing on me, it is not "my" fight, it is that of those who feel concerned by the future of the planet.
If you don't feel concerned or feel helpless in advance, that's your problem, not mine.
Fortunately, not everyone said that to each other at the time, we would still be under the 3rd Reich.

With your obsolete defeatist thought, you waste my time and energy, so back to the ignored people, from which I made the mistake to get you out.

There you go, Obamot, you now know more clearly why I can't stand this old idiot mentality.
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humus
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by humus » 08/12/21, 16:09

Ahmed wrote:The competition referred to Janic upper

I was the one who introduced the competition, but that's okay. : Wink:
Without introducing the hazy concept of value where nobody understands anything, not even you since you are not able to make one guess the practical interest.
it suffices to bear in mind that capital and especially the capitalist behind it, demands interest or dividends.
It involves growth, it involves competition.
End of story, nothing complicated and it remains true.

As long as we do not get out of this, it is "ruin" guaranteed : Arrow: the boundary wall
Last edited by humus the 08 / 12 / 21, 16: 18, 1 edited once.
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by humus » 08/12/21, 16:17

Obamot wrote:
humus wrote:In fact I do not understand what you hear not missing model? [b] Anyone who doesn't review all the fundamentals

Well, it is a sustainable model that you are looking for.
Here too everything is said, no need to beat around the bush : Arrow: sustainable at all levels and it's won.

is the capitalism that demands growth sustainable?
No !
So bye bye the current debt-based banking system, which requires growth to function properly, otherwise there are bubbles that swell, swell. : roll:

Then we can discuss all the measures to be sustainable, but if no one agrees that "sustainable" is the only one, not the best, but the only solution, one is wasting time.
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Re: Understand the world we live in?




by Janic » 08/12/21, 17:22

humus
It is not worth focusing on me, it is not "my" fight, it is that of those who feel concerned by the future of the planet.
I only focus because you attract this focus to yourself.
If you don't feel concerned or feel helpless in advance, that's your problem, not mine.
and it starts up again. Fortunately, Superman and his extraordinary powers will save the planet.
Fortunately, not everyone said that to each other at the time, we would still be under the 3rd Reich.
because you think the world has been waiting for you? Nobody noticed it
With your obsolete defeatist thought, you waste my time and energy, so back to the ignored people, from which I made the mistake to get you out.
with my realistic thinking, I only waste time on you and according to your only fantasized criteria. go back and hide, ABCile way.
There you go, Obamot, you now know more clearly why I can't stand this old idiot mentality.
What is well worth the mentality of young idiot, it balances!
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