The hydrogen house

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: The hydrogen house




by sicetaitsimple » 08/04/18, 16:16

BaudouinLabrique wrote:You try to make believe that nuclear electricity has a gray footprint lower than that of PV; nothing is more wrong:

"[...]the study that refers (it is also mentioned by the ADME in its Guide of emission factors) is that of Benjamin K. Sovacool of the University of Singapore which results in even higher quantities. He showed that the C02 emissions attributable to nuclear power generation averages 66gr / CO2 / kWh based on a critical review of 103 studies devoted to this issue. 38% of the sector's CO2 emissions are due to uranium ore mining, packaging and transportation operations.



Ah, I recommend reading this thread:
energies-fossil-nuclear / nuclear-and-carbon-emissions-what-in-co2-kwh-digit-pwc-EDF-ADEME-stanford-t15536-50.html

concerning the famous Sovacool study, I wrote there, after reading it:

[i] Messageby sicetaitsimple »02/02/18, 19:51
The famous Sovacool study is here:

http://www.nirs.org/climate/background/sovacoo ...ar_ghg.pdf

Not uninteresting to read to understand the cycle.

However:

- it identifies 103 studies
- it eliminates 40 because they are more than ten years old
- it eliminates 9 because they are paid, or in Japanese, ...
- he eliminates 35 because he does not like the methodology.
- there are therefore 19 left, including 3 from Storm Van Leeuwen, the 3 giving the ladle identical results, at the top of the range.

Weird isn't it? Can we vote 3 times when there are 17 voters?

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: The hydrogen house




by sicetaitsimple » 08/04/18, 16:19

BaudouinLabrique wrote:CO² return time is a pleonastic concept! I have never seen such a concept taken up as you call it. Nothing on the net and therefore it is a concept that you invent!



If you don't understand anything I can't do much for you .....
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Re: The hydrogen house




by phil12 » 08/04/18, 17:08

BaudouinLabrique wrote:
phil12 wrote:- PV panels. Worse, they emit, being imported from countries where energy is essentially coal, more CO2 per kWh than our French electricity ...
Who's this nonsense! [Img] https://www.econologie.com/forums/ smileys / sad
still stories of counters it is necessary to put a little update in its data [img] https://www.econologie.com/forums/ smileys / mait

The "Sustainable Construction Energy Council" that you are should not say such nonsense (which is therefore not on the side you designate):

« It [gray energy] teaches us that the energy return time of a complete photovoltaic system (the modules, but also the cables, the frames and the electronic tools), varies between 19 and 40 months depending on the sunshine for a system. roof mounted and between 32 and 56 months for a facade mounted system (vertical) ». Gray energy of PV panels

« It follows that the gray energy required by the PV plant is compensated after a year and a half already (= 887 / 574). If the PV modules are manufactured in China, the gray energy of the PV plant is amortized after 2,2 years (= 1257 / 574). During its minimum service life of 30 years, a PV installation saves between 14 and 20 its own gray energy ».
Stereotypes



And for me it's even less because it is a PV tracker that produces about 20% more than other systems


Why so much hatred is exactly what I said, or you misread or my post may not have been clear, but that doesn't allow you that tone : Evil: the climate on some threads is really rotten, good luck (try chamomile it works)

Go good wind!
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Bardal
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Re: The hydrogen house




by Bardal » 08/04/18, 17:51

sicetaitsimple wrote:
BaudouinLabrique wrote:CO² return time is a pleonastic concept! I have never seen such a concept taken up as you call it. Nothing on the net and therefore it is a concept that you invent!



If you don't understand anything I can't do much for you .....


It is however very simple to understand:

- a PV panel takes about 2 years to "reimburse" its embodied energy (I think everyone agrees on this)

- if it produces 1000 kWh per year, that means that it consumed 2000 kWh to be built

- made in China, where electrical energy is essentially based on coal (i.e. 1000g of CO2 emitted per kWh), this panel will therefore be responsible for 2000 kg of CO2 (i.e. 2 tonnes)

- if it lasts 25 years, it will produce 25 kWh, i.e. a CO000 emission of 2 kg / 2000 = 25000 g of CO80 per kWh

Serious studies (P. Scherrer Institute for example, Swiss, and we know that the Swiss are renowned for their seriousness) show that in France, by integrating all carbon sources (gray energy, fuel, dismantling, waste ... ) nuclear emits between 6 and 8 g of CO2 per kWh on the basis of a 40-year lifespan (if it is more than 40 years, it decreases a little). Incidentally, wind and hydro is about the same: gas is 440g and coal about 1000g.

PV therefore emits around 10 times more CO2 than nuclear, wind or hydro; in France, it is nonsense to install this, it is expensive, it produces when it wants, it drags down the trade balance, and it's ugly ... and it emits GHG ...
On the other hand, in Germany, this can be defended (electricity is mainly based there on lignite-coal); in China too ...

Conclusion: before foolishly imitating your neighbor, or blindly following advertising campaigns, you have to think a little bit ...

PS This reasoning is only valid for countries with low CO2 emissions (there are few; France, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland ...) and for PV panels manufactured in countries with high carbon electricity (they are the majority , especially China and the Far East, where these panels are made).

Ps 2: BaudouinLabrique, my dear friend, from now on you will not be able to say that you did not know and that it was not on the internet
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: The hydrogen house




by sicetaitsimple » 08/04/18, 18:29

Thank you for your patience and this explanation, sometimes I sometimes fall for bad faith or stupidity (everyone will choose)!

The ideal would indeed be to manufacture the panels in France and install them in China, unfortunately I do not think that this is in tune with the times! That said to my knowledge China installed around 50GW of PV in 2017, they may be in a virtuous circle, but it will take time to materialize in the emission figures.

For the rest (apart from CO2), I do not completely share your analysis on the interest of developing PV in France, provided that it is "reasoned". To my knowledge, the latest calls for tenders came out around € 55 / MWh, which is becoming very affordable, subject to progress at a reasonable rate.
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Re: The hydrogen house




by Bardal » 08/04/18, 20:27

sicetaitsimple wrote:Thank you for your patience and this explanation, sometimes I sometimes fall for bad faith or stupidity (everyone will choose)!

The ideal would indeed be to manufacture the panels in France and install them in China, unfortunately I do not think that this is in tune with the times! That said to my knowledge China installed around 50GW of PV in 2017, they may be in a virtuous circle, but it will take time to materialize in the emission figures.

For the rest (apart from CO2), I do not completely share your analysis on the interest of developing PV in France, provided that it is "reasoned". To my knowledge, the latest calls for tenders came out around € 55 / MWh, which is becoming very affordable, subject to progress at a reasonable rate.


Said like that, we can join ... But

- if we are on competitive production costs, then, no need to subsidize PV installations; investors, numerous I have no doubt, will be very happy to sell their production when it is available, for example in winter (when the sky is not cloudy) at 14 p.m., or in summer when France (or Germany) is trembling with cold and trying to get warm ...

- if a fair "carbon tax" is effectively voted and implemented (as I personally wish), the production price will be increased accordingly; however, this would be the only way to intelligently regulate the energy market, electricity in particular ...

- the major question remains above all: how much is valued a negawatt, and what is the most economical and most credible way to go towards a decarbonization of energy consumption in France and in the world; In other words, do we have to struggle, at any cost, to find other sources of energy, or do we have to imagine the means of saving this energy? I have some very strong ideas on this question ...

But I have to dream ...
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: The hydrogen house




by sicetaitsimple » 08/04/18, 22:14

bardal wrote:- if we are on competitive production costs, then, no need to subsidize PV installations; investors, numerous I have no doubt, will be very happy to sell their production when it is available, for example in winter (when the sky is not cloudy) at 14 p.m., or in summer when France (or Germany) is trembling with cold and trying to get warm ...

- if a fair "carbon tax" is effectively voted and implemented (as I personally wish), the production price will be increased accordingly; however, this would be the only way to intelligently regulate the energy market, electricity in particular ...

- the major question remains above all: how much is valued a negawatt, and what is the most economical and most credible way to go towards a decarbonization of energy consumption in France and in the world; In other words, do we have to struggle, at any cost, to find other sources of energy, or do we have to imagine the means of saving this energy? I have some very strong ideas on this question ...

But I have to dream ...


-on the subsidies, I agree in principle, in the past I "militated" a lot against the absolutely unreasonable purchase prices of the period around 2010. The past is the past, you have to pay. What interests me is today, when we reach around 50 or 60 € / MWh, it is obvious, even if this rate is guaranteed by additional remuneration (a subsidy) compared to the market price. For "new nuclear", beyond Flamanville 3, it will be the same question anyway.

-yes, the PV produced especially in summer! Hence my "recommendation" on being "reasonable". If from April to September in France we could eliminate all electricity production from coal or gas, it would be good, PV would do what it can on October-March.

-I have no problem with a carbon tax on electricity production, provided that it is European. For the moment it is not won ....

- Négawatt yes, of course, but I prefer Négatep!
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Re: The hydrogen house




by brunofr » 21/08/21, 12:03

Hello,

According to European Directive 2014/34 / EU, Hydrogen is classified in the Gas Group IIC category ... in the same category as Acethylene, the most dangerous gas ...

This installation is de facto subject to the European Pressure Equipment Directive (formerly PED) ... and with more than 100 Bar (g), we are already in a High Pressure area.

Here is for the regulatory aspect

I would also be curious to know how your installer will certify (see instructions above) all the assembly with supporting technical file which proves that the assembly meets the essential safety requirements? ... and what about the declaration of the installation to your insurer?
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Re: The hydrogen house




by FabricePaille » 12/11/21, 09:13

Hello
brunofr wrote:Hello,

I would also be curious to know how your installer will certify (see instructions above) all the assembly with supporting technical file which proves that the assembly meets the essential safety requirements? ... and what about the declaration of the installation to your insurer?


I agree with you

It will take an all 316 stainless steel assembly with swagelock type products, an H2 regulator and multiple safety valves all with vents collected and spitting on the roof. All in a leaded cupboard so that no one touches it. Suffice to say that in town it's dead. In industry, who says H2 says H2 detectors and controlled ventilation, and that costs money.

The whole with a craftsman having the material and an authorization. And this is no longer a natural gas accreditation.

Finally, there is the thorny problem of delivery: by truck, not viable. At the cylinder, a B50 is 60 kg for 10 l (000l at 50 bars), the heavy weight of gas cylinders?

But especially the H2 when things go wild, it is not the small explosion of natural gas. In a company that I know, a micro leak of H2 caused an algeco to explode ... Simply a micro leak. At 4% in the air occasionally and it farts.

The most relevant solution would be to do as the Japanese do: enrich the network gas with H2.

cordially

Fabrice
http://maison.electrique.free.fr/
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Re: The hydrogen house




by ABC2019 » 12/11/21, 09:56

a little-known aspect of hydrogen: it is an "indirect" greenhouse gas. That is to say that it does not produce a greenhouse effect in itself (it does not absorb in the thermal infrared of the Earth, its vibration frequency is too high). On the other hand, if it leaks into the atmosphere, which is inevitable, it reacts chemically with free radicals which ensure the destruction of GHGs such as methane and ozone, and therefore increases their concentration in the stationary state (which is a balance in production and destruction). In a way, it is not a GHG but it protects certain GHGs (this does not concern CO2 which is not destroyed by radical reactions).

https://www.futura-sciences.com/planete ... que-94724/
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