State of mind for a viable future

Humanitarian catastrophes (including resource wars and conflicts), natural, climate and industrial (except nuclear or oil forum fossil and nuclear energy). Pollution of the sea and oceans.
Ahmed
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by Ahmed » 22/05/20, 20:33

For the innuendo, I agree: what you have read is incomplete, but be patient, the rest will come in due time! 8)
You note:
If you want to hurt yourself : Wink:, You're welcome...
No, I have always been interested in explanatory grids, do you know that there are much more crisp?
Well, back to our sheep: the question you have chosen is not the simplest, but it was I who set the rule, so ...

"In reality, growth is only the expression of the increasing satisfaction of the needs of a greater number of individuals, which obviously also has unintended consequences. It is precisely the remarkable performance of what some call the capitalism "system" in satisfying needs which has extended its use universally, and it would be quite inconsistent to reproach economically backward countries for not seeking to take advantage of the advantages of the model that the work and ingenuity of Europeans have succeeded so painfully in building. You will note on the one hand that these disadvantages in no way put off the exotic populations who, on the contrary, are eager to enjoy the same comfort as that which we enjoy, without very often without wanting to recognize these inconveniences as fair consideration and even to them. exaggerate excessively: the man is so made that he wants the butter and the money of the butter ... On the other hand, you will also note that these undesirable consequences are combated more and more effectively, which results in much better scores for pollution: this approach, which honors human ingenuity, bears witness to the resources of science and technology. This latest progress is needed everywhere, not only in Europe, but also in China and other countries which are pragmatically "correcting" the situation.
Regarding resources, we can also be optimistic: the new manufacturing processes are less greedy in mining products (miniaturization), moreover, in addition to the discoveries of new deposits, they are new materials little or not used until today which will be needed tomorrow.
In reality, it is precisely the difficulties that you rightly point out that have been the triggers for progress in these countries where existence is less easy than in other latitudes: everything suggests that it will be the same today and that, far from being the brake that paralyzes you in advance, they will on the contrary be a new breeding ground for the emergence of a new spirit of peaceful conquests: what a magnificent challenge for great minds, that of new opportunities and so far unimaginable
!"

The style is certainly not there, but it was only a question of logic here and I believe I was quite faithful to it ...
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by eclectron » 24/05/20, 10:39

A courageous pragmatist who advances without questioning croissantism / capitalism (who could alone ?! : Lol: but still it would be beneficial ...I will reply to your previous message later Ahmed : Wink: )

Mayor of the village of Les Voivres, in the Vosges, Michel Fournier fights body and soul against the desertification of the countryside. Antithesis of the distant technocrat, this ambassador of rurality managed to double the population of his commune. For the novelist Alexandre Jardin, who paints a sensitive portrait of it, the man shows the way, by giving up all knowing before acting and by waltzing his certainties. Through this portrait of an atypical mayor with a contagious laugh, the writer encourages us to modify our way of thinking.

video available until June 21: https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/073049-05 ... e-artiste/
tasty passage around 22mn 30s : Lol:



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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by eclectron » 24/05/20, 20:07

Ahmed wrote:"In reality, growth is only the expression of the increasing satisfaction of the needs of a greater number of individuals, which obviously also has unintended consequences. It is precisely the remarkable performance of what some call the capitalism "system" in satisfying needs which has extended its use universally, and it would be quite inconsistent to reproach economically backward countries for not seeking to take advantage of the advantages of the model that the work and ingenuity of Europeans have succeeded so painfully in building. You will note on the one hand that these disadvantages in no way put off the exotic populations who, on the contrary, are eager to enjoy the same comfort as that which we enjoy, without very often without wanting to recognize these inconveniences as fair consideration and even to them. exaggerate excessively: the man is so made that he wants the butter and the money of the butter ... On the other hand, you will also note that these undesirable consequences are combated more and more effectively, which results in much better scores for pollution: this approach, which honors human ingenuity, bears witness to the resources of science and technology. This latest progress is needed everywhere, not only in Europe, but also in China and other countries which are pragmatically "correcting" the situation.
Regarding resources, we can also be optimistic: the new manufacturing processes are less greedy in mining products (miniaturization), moreover, in addition to the discoveries of new deposits, they are new materials little or not used until today which will be needed tomorrow.
In reality, it is precisely the difficulties that you rightly point out that have been the triggers for progress in these countries where existence is less easy than in other latitudes: everything suggests that it will be the same today and that, far from being the brake that paralyzes you in advance, they will on the contrary be a new breeding ground for the emergence of a new spirit of peaceful conquests: what a magnificent challenge for great minds, that of new opportunities and so far unimaginable
!"

Yes, well seen the "liberal" speech : Lol:

1) You could have added: just to pose the problem of resources vs demography is Malthusian, so that I wish genocides, blah ..., Hitler. : Lol:
2) Or it is not for lack of flint that man went to metal.
3) Or we have always managed to get by until today so there is no reason why it should not continue positively. : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:

BUT in all of this there is no evidence that perpetual crescentism is possible on a finite planet and indeed, it is mathematically / physically impossible.
It is then necessary to twist the problem, to twist reality to remain liberal right in his boots.

One could hypothesize that the limit of resources / inventions is still far away, and that consequently we can still grow. What is scientifically false, we exceeded the limits of renewable in the 80s, Cf Meadows.
In reality, we hit the sctock, we destroy the biosphere and squander the resources more to satisfy a model than to satisfy human needs, while waiting for the elastic band "mother nature" to break.

In 2) and 3) there is an attempt at inductive reasoning. Until then everything is fine so tomorrow certainly too ... : Lol:
Argument which is only the proof that so far, everything has been pretty well. It proves the past, nothing more.
The only realistic display that I have identified, allowing the whole planet to have a more or less western comfort of life, would be: durable, repairable, recyclable.

Unfortunately, there is no scientific study proving that capitalist croissantism can still work for a long time. There is only scientific evidence to the contrary and even common sense immediately seizes him. : roll:

No, it takes a psychological bias not to see reality as it is and to believe that everything can continue with this hairy system, built and theorized, falsely claimed as natural.
It is not natural, it is simple, based on the lowest urges of humanity: greed, fear of lack.

when you are a baby, it is natural to move on all fours. Are we staying there?
The viability of human civilization can only be achieved by evolving, by breaking out of the shackles of increasing capitalism since it is impossible indefinitely in a finite world.
Capitalism, which when confronted with limits, becomes more and more absurd.

The concern is that everyone was born in capitalism, we only know that, therefore, everyone links material comfort and capitalist model. Out of this model no salvation! Otherwise it's back to the cave! : Lol:

We do not allow ourselves to really think ecological, that is to say really resource efficient. The winning trio: sustainable, repairable, recyclable is a solution and is incompatible with perpetual financial growth but is compatible with a rise in the real material standard of living.

Aside from vociferating or playing the startled virgins, I don't see what rational argument people like Exnihiloest
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GuyGadebois
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by GuyGadebois » 24/05/20, 20:33

eclectron wrote:Apart from vociferating or playing the startled virgins, I don't see what rational argument could bring people like Exnihiloest

I do, and not just one. : Mrgreen:
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by Ahmed » 24/05/20, 20:41

"On 1), demography: despite its inertia which complicates things a little, access to a certain material ease induces a reduction in births: this is what is called the demographic transition and there is no therefore no reason to witness endless population growth.
By targeting a western + or - lifestyle by stopping growth, that is to say the possibility of developing new solutions (things that did not exist in the time of the Meadows report, when many are on the rails, such as the prodigious resources of AI), you refuse access to this comfort to the countries that are waiting, while you plebiscite it for you and those who are already the best provided.
Of course, capitalism is concerned about ecology: on the one hand as I have shown previously, but also because it automatically results from its functioning which is perfectly regulated at its two levels: the market which is interested to fight pollution as soon as a demand arises in its favor and it does so in exact proportion to the intensity of this demand; moreover, as it is true that the market cannot take into account certain aspects relating to the commons, the State undertakes to enact the appropriate normative measures to ensure the best possible compromise in relation to all the components of the society
."

PS: Eclectron, sorry if I'm not really good at vociferating or playing the startled virgins, you will have to complete it yourself ... : Oops:
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by eclectron » 29/05/20, 10:26

Ahmed wrote:"On 1), demography: despite its inertia which complicates things a little, access to a certain material ease induces a reduction in births: this is what is called the demographic transition and there is no therefore no reason to witness endless population growth.
By targeting a western + or - lifestyle by stopping growth, that is to say the possibility of developing new solutions (things that did not exist in the time of the Meadows report, when many are on the rails, such as the prodigious resources of AI), you refuse access to this comfort to the countries that are waiting, while you plebiscite it for you and those who are already the best provided.
Of course, capitalism is concerned about ecology: on the one hand as I have shown previously, but also because it automatically results from its functioning which is perfectly regulated at its two levels: the market which is interested to fight pollution as soon as a demand arises in its favor and it does so in exact proportion to the intensity of this demand; moreover, as it is true that the market cannot take into account certain aspects relating to the commons, the State undertakes to enact the appropriate normative measures to ensure the best possible compromise in relation to all the components of the society
."

All this is true, except that I refuse nothing to anyone but you are right to ask the question in these terms: "I refuse" : Wink: , that's what a liberal would tell me, just to make me feel guilty and in the end, to make me adhere to his growing delirium.
I do not refuse anything to anyone, even with a stabilized demography, I simply envisage a natural limit to development because of the limited resources coupled to a resource-intensive growing system (capitalism).
It's not me who refuses but nature ET the human inability to envisage another economic model than perpetual growth, capitalism.

"Durable, repairable and recyclable" which is really resource efficient, so exit capitalism, would allow may be western-style living comfort, extended to all those who want it.


This type of liberal response still does not show how a growing system * by nature, capitalism, made to grow perpetually in a finite world.
It's a bit like demonstrating that perpetual motion works. Liberalism will never succeed in demonstrating that perpetual growth in a finite world is possible, since a 5 year old child understands that it is impossible.

* if it is not a croissantist, it is not, capitalism disappears.
As proof, our 2 poor months of confinement pose many economic concerns.
Do I remind you that there is no shortage of resources, no shortage of labor, no shortage of means of production, no agricultural shortage, in short no shortage of concrete and yet that poses economic concerns, more precisely money worries where it is needed. We fall back on debt money my dear Ahmed. : Wink: and so we fall back on capitalism as a problem and not as a solution.
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by eclectron » 29/05/20, 10:43

History of changing horizons and not dwelling on an economic system on which we can do nothing individually, here are some openings accessible to the individual, to dissociate themselves in part from the system:
Be more resilient and more in tune with your deepest aspirations.

In short, a little concrete or sources of inspiration for his personal research:

-Choice of a place to live

- Dome greenhouse

- Terra preta / biochar







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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by eclectron » 30/05/20, 08:26

Anecdotal in relation to the main subject of this video, here is a track / info from this sequence and the few seconds that follow, on local currency and on currency with interest (debt currency)
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by ABC2019 » 30/05/20, 09:00

eclectron wrote:Anecdotal in relation to the main subject of this video, here is a track / info from this sequence and the few seconds that follow, on local currency and on currency with interest (debt currency)

ouh la Benveniste, Petit, Souriau ... it's heavy! the club of great unknown geniuses whose theories have never been confirmed ... : Lol: : Lol:
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Re: State of mind for a viable future




by GuyGadebois » 30/05/20, 13:11

ABC2019 wrote:
eclectron wrote:Anecdotal in relation to the main subject of this video, here is a track / info from this sequence and the few seconds that follow, on local currency and on currency with interest (debt currency)

ouh la Benveniste, Petit, Souriau ... it's heavy! the club of great unknown geniuses whose theories have never been confirmed ... : Lol: : Lol:

Just like in your thesis area .... : Mrgreen:
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