WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car

[RIAZ]

Yes he was wrong (typing error) but everyone understood since the g of CO2 in thermal vehicles are given in g / km ...

Sorry for those who didn't see it was a shell and for Bardal in particular. The way of arriving at the result however facilitated its detection ...

If everyone understands that running electric with its own renewable current is the TOP and that driving with fossil current is a dead end is already a lot.
Until recently, a large number of people, even highly educated and normally having access to scientific reasoning (what DID67 call a chestnut !) jumped on their chairs like goats screaming Electric, Electric, Electric, without ever wondering what was behind the outlet. If this number of people is reduced, hallelujah (3 times)!

, and recharged during off-peak periods (therefore without carbon power plant), it will only emit 150 g of CO2 / 100 km (factor greater than 20)

And yes, a large number of people still believe that because the French current is produced for 3/4 with nuclear power, the tri-color EVs could run with a current reduced in CO2.
It is of course tempting to use a belief to have fun, but the reality is quite different because France is not electrically isolated from its European neighbors. The French electricity network is very interconnected with the rest of Europe and that's good for our security of supply.
The intellectually bearable minimum would be to take the value of European CO2 / kWh, or 460 g / kWh. With this value our ZOE at 20 kWh / 100 km spits 92 g of CO2 / km (yes, per km )
It is not glorious, to provide a much better service we have cars that obtain the same score, whose overall environmental impact is lower and which do not need new and ruinous infrastructure to drive.

But true reality is much worse ... reality which is constituted by the relationship between a fact and its consequences.

EDF does not shut down its nuclear power plants during "slack" periods of French electricity consumption, but it does not throw the current into the river. This current is sold to our neighbors who, in passing, integrate this "low carbon" current into their national consumption mix.

Si Bardal managed to convince millions of French people to recharge their EVs during off-peak hours, what will happen?
The answer is simple, there will be even fewer kWh "exported" than kWh consumed for recharging.
This is easy to understand ...

We can believe that our neighbors deprived of our current will rush on the candles, but in reality, they will put coal in their plants, I mean by that they will activate their means of production and unfortunately not the greenest ...
And the current delta product to recharge our red white blue EVs will have a CO2 content far greater than the standard European mix.
And here, it is not more complicated to understand ...

We can extend the reasoning to any time of the day on any day of the year. Electric consumption of EVs will be a new consumption (the great dream of EDF) and depending on the case, it will reduce our export capacity or increase our need for imports, which will lead to the production of "dirty" current outside our borders. . And everyone knows that CO2 has no borders.

This is why we can say, even if it is not a pleasure, that today EVs run on coal ... even if we close coal power plants in France

The only way to get out of it in the medium term is to reduce the need for energy to get around, and it's not by weighing down heavy cars that we're going to get there.
Christophe is on the right track, his ULM automobile (not necessarily electric for that matter!) Which could consume 6 to 7 kWh / 100 km, the equivalent of 2 l / 100 km, would be a reasonable route and in the same electricity production environment, it would make 30 g of CO2 / km.

Those who think that the French will not accept the downsizing of their dear car probably ignore that necessity rules ...
And if it is necessary that this small, weakly motorized and aerodynamic vehicle (the three characteristics must be combined) be electric to get it adopted ... why not!

Michel

[Did67]

Okay...

This is why (and because I did not win the lottery - and it is not tomorrow the day before since I practice tax evasion by not paying this voluntary tax!) That I think that the EV without acquiring even an imperfect capacity to produce its electricity from non-fossil sources is a false solution ... We are a "seemingly solution"!

I note that a very modest "downsizing" is already underway: there are many more Clio today whereas it was rather Laguna yesterday ... But we do not go below the threshold of the sacrosanct 5 places. SMART has not been a success, although it occupies a niche. Renault's little scooter was a flop!

Carpooling is developing in our region, in Alsace, where there is an increasing number of parking lots at each motorway junction: driving 4 people in a Clio is no worse than alone on one of the machines mentioned above! Two, it's almost the same. But here again, we come up against the lack of flexibility of employers. If I understand that in a factory, everyone starts at the same time, I do not understand why in a lot of professional situations flexible by nature, there is a time when you have to "clock in"! If we started there.

As for my "lazy man's vegetable garden", it is not a simple technical solution (replacing the boiler car with an EV, without changing anything else) that will solve the problem, but a paradigm shift (see the whole of the problem otherwise). And that !!!

I still remind you that the yellow vests, it was first to claim the right to free themselves from all these "constraints" ... and ride "not too expensive". Not a debate with a view to changing the paradigm ...

[sicetaitsimple]

EDF does not shut down its nuclear power plants during "slack" periods of French electricity consumption, but it does not throw the current into the river. This current is sold to our neighbors who, in passing, integrate this "low carbon" current into their national consumption mix.

Si Bardal managed to convince millions of French people to recharge their EVs during off-peak hours, what will happen?
The answer is simple, there will be even fewer kWh "exported" than kWh consumed for recharging.
This is easy to understand ...

Michel

It may be easy to understand if you want to be simplistic, but it's just wrong.

That would amount to postulating that EDF has "a right" to dump its "surplus" nuclear MWh at its neighbors as it sees fit. This is not how it works, for there to be an exchange you have to be two and agree on a price.

So a gust of wind in Germany or in Spain, or a beautiful summer day in Germany, a period of snowmelt in Switzerland, these are only examples, plus weekends and festive periods, I forget, and this postulate is found abused.

I'm not inventing anything, just look at nuclear production on the RTE site to see that it drops every night or almost and even more on the WE, I'm not talking about the end periods of year.

[Forhorse]

However, the average cubic capacity of "everyone's" cars is constantly falling. A colleague told me that on the new Renault models in the 2019 catalog no longer have any engine above 2l

[Did67]

This ties in with the "downsizing" that I mentioned. However, the displacement is a "bad indicator", because the turbo is generalized. Therefore, with a much smaller displacement, by "stuffing" the cylinders better, we can keep the same power ... Today, the vans are 1,6 to 2.1 liters and yet, they do not drag ...

[Forhorse]

it's been 10 years that turbos have been a general thing.
And why talk about vans? we were talking about cars, it's not the same use or the same clientele.

[Bardal]

@RIAZ

OK for the error, but without correction, it becomes impossible to compare the respective emissions ...

On French electrical production, I think you are greatly mistaken in the description you make of it, and this is not a typo.

The fact that the West European network is interconnected (that is to say it is balanced over a space which crosses borders) does not mean that the productions are not located in such or such country, nor that the exchanges (besides enough limited in volume) are not counted precisely, and even valued to the nearest euro, according to market prices (themselves specific to each country).

There is therefore a permanent evaluation of national productions, their compositions, their respective GHG emissions; these data are also published each year, at the level of each country and at the European level (it is very easy to find on the internet) and it is therefore perfectly illegitimate to "take the value of European CO2 / kWh , or 460 g / kWh "; nobody does it because it is completely wrong physically as well as administratively and commercially.

Here is a small table of these emissions (source AIE):

• Sweden: 0,04 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• France: 0,09 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Austria: 0,20 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Finland: 0,24 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Belgium: 0,29 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Spain: 0,48 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Italy: 0,59 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Germany: 0,60 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Netherlands: 0,64 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Greece: 0,64 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• United Kingdom: 0,64 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Portugal: 0,64 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Ireland: 0,70 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Denmark: 0,84 kg CO2 / kWh el.

• Luxembourg: 1,08 kg CO2 / kWh el

This table (not recent) concerning 2017 must be published (I did not search), but that of 2016 is published.

Your convoluted explanations on the operation of French power plants are completely fanciful and correspond to nothing:

- the peak periods in winter (the consumption peaks of 19 p.m. and 12 p.m.) are ensured by thermal power stations and hydroelectricity, which are added to nuclear power stations running at full capacity, as well as imports when prices are interesting or in case of absolute necessity.

- during off-peak periods, thermal power plants are shut down when possible, imports too, and the power of nuclear power plants is reduced (by around 15% on average) to adjust to demand; during the hot period, most nuclear power plants operate at part load, especially at night.

Thus, the most carbonaceous productions are located almost only in winter, during peak periods, and have practically no chance of supplying EV recharging which would be connected to dedicated outlets (such as electric cumulus). All summer, spring and autumn are also protected from recharging with carbonated kWh; would no doubt remain the inevitable exceptions imposed by emergencies.

And running nuclear power stations at full capacity during the periods when they are currently running at 75% on average is enough to produce almost decarbonized electricity for 20 million EVs, without in any way penalizing exports (at these times, our neighbors are also in off-peak hours and ask for nothing). Which is starting to be interesting in terms of reducing CO2 emissions.

All this is hardly a discovery, these stories of peaks of consumption and off-peak hours being well known to all, and the data are easily accessible. No need to argue too much about it ...

[RIAZ]

EDF does not shut down its nuclear power plants during "slack" periods of French electricity consumption, but it does not throw the current into the river. This current is sold to our neighbors who, in passing, integrate this "low carbon" current into their national consumption mix.

Si Bardal managed to convince millions of French people to recharge their EVs during off-peak hours, what will happen?
The answer is simple, there will be even fewer kWh "exported" than kWh consumed for recharging.
This is easy to understand ...

Michel

It may be easy to understand if you want to be simplistic, but it's just wrong.

That would amount to postulating that EDF has "a right" to dump its "surplus" nuclear MWh at its neighbors as it sees fit. This is not how it works, for there to be an exchange you have to be two and agree on a price.

It's astonishing to say that a thing is false without providing an argument while giving the reason why it is true: you just have to agree on the price!

When EDF (RTE) MUST sell its current, it is inevitably supplier at the lowest price and it inevitably finds taker without putting a gun on the temple of anyone.
Moreover, if it is relatively easy to find exchange figures in tWh it is very difficult to find the corresponding figures in €, while electricity is primarily trading rooms! If someone has these figures, I am a taker and I am certainly not the only one.

This price break when production is in surplus should not only affect nuclear power, it could happen for PV, whose peaks of production occur when demand is not necessarily strong (summer, day). And the fuel sun being free, it is better to sell off than to put OFF.

@ RIAZ On French electrical production, I think you are greatly mistaken in the description you make of it, and this is not a typo.

OK, just say where the error is ... even if you have to go into detail. We are going to learn interesting things and it is always useful to see that we are wrong.
The RTE website (http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... _bilan.jsp ) gives a detailed and global vision of electricity exchanges with European countries. It is enough to see what would happen outside France if French domestic demand increased due to new (I insist on new) consumption appeared.

If these are some EVs for people who can afford to access the current offer (I was going to say the sores that I know!), There is no bp, but we are talking about the fleet conversion ....

Michel

[Did67]

it's been 10 years that turbos have been a general thing.
And why talk about vans? we were talking about cars, it's not the same use or the same clientele.

Yes, but the renewal of the vehicle fleet is slow, so a "change" at the moment t is not seen in a massive way in the street until a few years later, even decades ...

I spoke of the van to illustrate the idea that the displacement can decrease but not necessarily the power, nor the consumption - because of the turbo, precisely. As there is more air, we can also "stuff" more fuel (well, exactly it must fill more fuel) in a smaller displacement. However, it is the fuel that concerns us, not the engine capacity ... If the van bothers, we will park it. This is also true for cars.

[Bardal]

@ RIAZ On French electrical production, I think you are greatly mistaken in the description you make of it, and this is not a typo.

OK, just say where the error is ... even if you have to go into detail. We are going to learn interesting things and it is always useful to see that we are wrong.
The RTE website (http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/fr/v ... _bilan.jsp ) gives a detailed and global vision of electricity exchanges with European countries. It is enough to see what would happen outside France if French domestic demand increased due to new (I insist on new) consumption appeared.

If these are some EVs for people who can afford to access the current offer (I was going to say the sores that I know!), There is no bp, but we are talking about the fleet conversion ....

Michel

I thought I explained it to you simply.
If French demand increases due to new consumption and French production increases in the same proportions due to power stations which rotate more than they rotate, nothing would happen to our neighbors; the French network would always be balanced.

What you didn't understand is that during off-peak hours (which are roughly the same for all western European countries), French nuclear power plants produce around 80% of what they could produce, simply because the demand is not greater; it is enough to ask them 100% of what they can produce for them to do so; however, doing this costs practically nothing, better still, the average price per kWh would decrease. And this represents around 60 TeraWh / year, or the consumption of around 20 Million EVs.