WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car

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Did67
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Did67 » 13/12/18, 19:00

RIAZ wrote:
Yes, combined cycle gas power plants do exist, but a bit like flying fish, they are not (unfortunately) characteristic of the species!
How many% of world production are to be credited? And which CCG EDF is installing?

Michel


We reason here on the basis: VE increases demand; in response, more power plants will be needed; It is therefore not totally stupid to think that they will be of the latest generation, right ??? Even if the average is very below and that I suppose that one does not change one because like that, by snap of fingers.

I especially don't want to be a lawyer for EdF. I stole the info here: https://www.edf.fr/groupe-edf/producteu ... ine-au-gaz where we are talking about the Bouchain and Martigues plants (which was only 55% in 2012). That makes at least two!
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by ENERC » 14/12/18, 08:10

Christophe, your cost calculation is good.

The couple PV in self-consumption, VE also causes a change in behavior:
- when it rains we pay the current, so we tend to postpone its trips
- conversely when we have too much electricity produced and the car battery is full, we wonder where we are going to go : Lol: Well, we take the opportunity to go shopping, go see friends, or just walk around to consume the electricity that we would have lost otherwise.
In self-consumption we also adapt the meal menu: dishes in the oven or simmered for a long time when the weather is nice, dishes that are quick to cook when you pay the price.
Ditto for the laundry (in addition it dries faster with the sun).

You quickly become addicted to the pleasure of getting around for free.

To install PV in self-consumption, as much to put as much as possible according to its budget.
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Ahmed » 14/12/18, 10:38

ENERC, you write:
You quickly become addicted to the pleasure of getting around for free.

Except that this "free" only relates to energy, while what is expensive in the operation of EVs is the container of it ...
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Did67 » 14/12/18, 11:31

ENERC wrote:
The couple PV in self-consumption, VE also causes a change in behavior:
- when it rains we pay the current, so we tend to postpone its trips
- conversely when we have too much electricity produced and the car battery is full, we wonder where we are going to go : Lol: Well, we take the opportunity to go shopping, go see friends, or just walk around to consume the electricity that we would have lost otherwise.



Now, for home-work shuttles, it is less obvious: the vehicle is at the workplace during the day (for the majority of people - there are some who work at night!).

We see here that we will also have to change our behavior in our heads: be authorized to install a carport at work, provided that it is mobile (if we get fired) ?? Exchange of services: I "lend" mine at home which is not used, I "borrow" another ??? Etc ...

As with "natural" gardening, it is not enough to replace just such and such a synthetic pesticide with such "perlimpine powder". We have to change the system.

For retirees, it's easier to manage as you say. This is already a part of the target audience, especially since it is among the middle class retirees that we will also have the investment capacity (once the house is paid, invest cash or by loan - since we has a guarantee, the house - becomes possible) ... If we started with this 10% there, that begin to impact the consumption of petroleum.
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by RIAZ » 14/12/18, 12:28

Did67 wrote:
RIAZ wrote:
Yes, combined cycle gas power plants do exist, but a bit like flying fish, they are not (unfortunately) characteristic of the species!
How many% of world production are to be credited? And which CCG EDF is installing?

Michel


We reason here on the basis: VE increases demand; in response, more power plants will be needed; It is therefore not totally stupid to think that they will be of the latest generation, right ??? Even if the average is very below and that I suppose that one does not change one because like that, by snap of fingers.


For EDF (and therefore RTE), basic production is nuclear. Gas power stations (combined cycle or not) are used to absorb peaks because they are very flexible, they can start almost instantly (20 min!)
But they are rare to see here: https://www.gasinfocus.com/focus/les-ce ... -gaz-cccg/

To think that the future will be ensured by gas power stations assumes that we will be able to massively produce renewable methane (natural gas), otherwise, it is not encouraging.
Because with fossil gas it is not pleasant at all.
-> With a "normal" 552 g CO2 / kWh electric power plant. For the ZOE at 20kWh / 100 km that makes 110 g CO2 / 100 km
-> With a combined cycle power plant, we have 359 g CO2 and 71 g CO2 / 100 km respectively.

Even with the most refined techno (and whose deployment is made difficult by the too low price of carbon) it is not glorious, especially if we add to these 70 g the CO2 linked to the production / recycling of the electrical system.

Not glorious and not at all in conformity with Factor 4. We don't have two centuries to divide the emissions by 4 !!!!

And if we talk about electricity produced from coal, which is the majority case in the world and particularly in China which goes to EVs to keep some chances of breathing in the city, it is much worse. The Chinese ZOE is at 191 g CO2 / 100 km !! (kWh coal = 956 g of CO2)

You can not stop progress :frown:

Michel
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Christophe » 14/12/18, 13:06

Instead of reasoning in place of the government or EdF's decision-makers (which we are not ... so?) ... it suffices to apply the solution I mentioned above: produce your own renewable electricity to erase your overconsumption of road kWh !!

Sorry but the balance of the network is not OUR problem (in other words: OSEF!), It is the job of RTE and EdF that and by the time that the productions of renewable energies pose problems of balance, tons of uranium will still be burned ...

So via solar panels at 1 € / Wp, to be completed, if possible, with a small wind turbine: here too the prices have become very affordable, if you look carefully you will find small wind turbines from 1000W to 1000-1500 € with mast...

And there are even hybrid inverters: solar + wind! Like this, the car can really recharge during windy nights! (not to be confused with standing nights ... mouhahahah)

In France up to 12m mast, no permit is necessary to mount a wind turbine.

The best of the best: complete with hydraulics, but there, the potential is low!

You will answer me: yes but not everyone has a house or is not the owner ... okay, but not everyone has an electric car either! : Cheesy: And if it is not the "rich" who show the example ... sorry, we will not get away!

After each one makes, of course, their own choices of consumption and investment ... but in this case we will not have to accuse EdF of building new gas or nuclear power plants ...
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Bardal » 14/12/18, 19:55

RIAZ wrote:
Did67 wrote:
RIAZ wrote:
Yes, combined cycle gas power plants do exist, but a bit like flying fish, they are not (unfortunately) characteristic of the species!
How many% of world production are to be credited? And which CCG EDF is installing?

Michel


We reason here on the basis: VE increases demand; in response, more power plants will be needed; It is therefore not totally stupid to think that they will be of the latest generation, right ??? Even if the average is very below and that I suppose that one does not change one because like that, by snap of fingers.


For EDF (and therefore RTE), basic production is nuclear.
Because with fossil gas it is not pleasant at all.
-> With a "normal" 552 g CO2 / kWh electric power plant. For the ZOE at 20kWh / 100 km that makes 110 g CO2 / 100 km
-> With a combined cycle power plant, we have 359 g CO2 and 71 g CO2 / 100 km respectively.

Even with the most refined techno (and whose deployment is made difficult by the too low price of carbon) it is not glorious, especially if we add to these 70 g the CO2 linked to the production / recycling of the electrical system.

Not glorious and not at all in conformity with Factor 4. We don't have two centuries to divide the emissions by 4 !!!!

And if we talk about electricity produced from coal, which is the majority case in the world and particularly in China which goes to EVs to keep some chances of breathing in the city, it is much worse. The Chinese ZOE is at 191 g CO2 / 100 km !! (kWh coal = 956 g of CO2)

You can not stop progress :frown:

Michel


I must admit that I have some difficulty understanding your calculations.

If the kWh produced by a "normal" power station emits 552 g of CO2, your Zoe's emissions will be 20x552 = 11040 g per 100 km, and not 110g.
If the kWh of combined cycle power plant emits 359 g, the Zoé will emit 7180g and not 71g
And with carbon, it will be 956x20 = 19120 g and not 191 g.

Basically, you got the factor 100 wrong, which is nothing !!! All this shows that running EVs with electricity produced by carbonaceous fuels is nonsense, whether in China, Germany or the USA.

I offer you another calculation, a little more realistic:
- let us assume that the ZOE with a conventional engine spends 5 l / 100 km; with petroleum, it will emit 3750 g of CO2 / 100 km
- electric, it will consume 15 kWh; in France this corresponds to approximately 50x15 = 750 g of CO2 / 100 km (which is already a factor of 5), and recharged during off-peak periods (therefore without carbon power station), it will only emit 150 g of CO2 / 100 km (factor greater than 20)

Bof ... We can always say that it is not enough, but I find that it is not so bad ... No?
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Christophe » 14/12/18, 20:45

Yes he was wrong (typing error) but everyone understood since the g of CO2 in thermal vehicles are given in g / km ...

bardal wrote:I offer you another calculation, a little more realistic:
- let us assume that the ZOE with a conventional engine spends 5 l / 100 km; with petroleum, it will emit 3750 g of CO2 / 100 km
- electric, it will consume 15 kWh; in France this corresponds to approximately 50x15 = 750 g of CO2 / 100 km (which is already a factor of 5), and recharged during off-peak periods (therefore without carbon power station), it will only emit 150 g of CO2 / 100 km (factor greater than 20)

Bof ... We can always say that it is not enough, but I find that it is not so bad ... No?


Ah no there it is you who are wrong 5L of fuel will produce more than 3,7 kg of CO2!

Exactly: https://www.econologie.com/emissions-co ... el-ou-gpl/

Fuel: 2,3 kg per liter
Diesel or fuel oil: 2,6 kg per liter


Or 13 kg ... you have to zap the 1 in front so ... : Cheesy:

Yes nuclear is largely favorable to the electric car in terms of CO2 ... but there is not only CO2 as waste in nuclear ... and the official figures for nuclear CO2 are underestimated ...
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Bardal » 15/12/18, 00:33

Exact, it's carbon equivalent, not CO2; for CO2, you have to multiply by 4 ... But that does not change the reasoning.

And there is no "official" figure for CO2 emissions from nuclear power; there are estimates made by various organizations (the most serious estimate is that, in my opinion, of the Paul Scherrer Institute), which vary according to the sectors, the enrichment process, etc. In France (as well as in Switzerland or Sweden) the estimate of CO2 emissions per kWh produced is around 5 to 10 g, the same level as wind and hydroelectric power, and 8 to 10 times lower than photovoltaics .

Nuclear waste is another problem, and it is managed, and not balanced in the atmosphere like that of coal, oil or gas, which is not limited to CO2 either ... a coal power plant, or worse lignite, produces more radioactive waste than a nuclear power plant, with equal production; but that does not seem to bother many people (a good half of it leaves in fly ash and micro-particles).
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Re: WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car




by Bardal » 15/12/18, 01:57

Here, while we are at it, some small reflections on the current availability of electrical energy, in France always

- if an EV consumes an average of 3000 kWh per year, i.e. 3x10 ^ 6 Wh, 1 million VE will consume 3x10 ^ 12 Wh, i.e. 3 TeraWh, and 10 million, 30 TeraWh. Some even say that 20 million will be 60 TeraWh.

- French nuclear power plants have a load factor of 75%; they can be 90% available (the difference is that they run less at night and in summer); running them at 90% costs nothing or almost nothing (a little uranium, for around 1 / 1000th of euro per kWh) and would bring in 15% of their current production (a little more even), or 15% of 400 TeraWh , or 60 TeraWh; 60 TeraWh, here it reminds me of something. And all this without any investment, or even any additional expense, or even a strengthening of the network ...

- this is not enough ? We want to go up to 37 million EVs, or electrify the PL; well, we export 50 or 60 TeraWh every year, to countries which are already largely favored since they have photovoltaic and wind (and coal or gas). There, it costs, what these exports bring us, but it is more than offset by the drop in oil imports. And still without any investment.

- is that still not enough? Come on, it's going to be nice, there are two nuclear units in perfect working order that will be sent to the date; that would make about fifteen cheap TeraWh (recycling, that's green); in less provo, there are still 8 million "all-electric" homes to switch to heat pumps (it's 4, 5 or 6 times cheaper per home than an EV), picking up in the process a small fifty TeraWh ...

In fact, it is certainly not the availability of electrical energy that constitutes a limiting factor for the development of EVs; Obviously, if we refuse nuclear at all costs, it becomes more difficult ... But we don't have to choose stupid options all the time.

The real limiting factor is obviously the batteries, expensive and not very durable in their current form; can we have some hopes in research and advances in technology? I think so, but it's a gamble ...

NB I hardly believe in VE ULMs; it's too far from the habits and needs of users (we knew this approach in the 50s and 60s, it never took off); I believe much more in light cars (type Ax Citroen, or 4L, or Fiat 500, or Mini), with limited autonomy (100-150 km), for daily trips, and in plug-in hybrid cars (90 km in electricity, 500 petroleum) for which electricity would cover 95% of trips and petrol the rest, for long trips ...
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