A vegetable meadow?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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to be chafoin
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 27/10/18, 11:15

Did67 wrote: idea of ​​"nitrogen pumps":

- there, on a part you will not grow vegetables next season, put a big layer of pure straw: you generate a "nitrogen mega-hunger"
- in spring, in coarse furrows (open just with a hook, for example), install legumes forage (clovers); these are the legumes the most effective in terms of symbiotic nitrogen fixation
Would this work with non-forage legumes, such as beans? Do the latter have the same function you are talking about: the more nitrogen the soil is hungry, the more and better the beans will grow? I ask myself the question because, by dint of making them, I find that the beans work surprisingly well in my vegetable garden. It's such an easy grow, maybe because it's also not a strain that has been adapted to the soil / climate for very long. Apparently the Gauls were already cultivating it, I don't know about the "Gironde" but hey ...
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 27/10/18, 11:46

to be chafoin wrote:If nutrients are leached, is it really a godsend? Of course we do not talk about the same animals, but it is good to feed micro-organisms and animals (soil) all the same.


Yes.

The loss of leachable elements is low. Most of it is "trapped" in the biomass.

Ruminants eat hay that has taken rain, unless it is moldy (often this is what makes this hay is no longer used as fodder). They prefer the one who did not take the rain!

Many garden with "miserable" materials (cardboard, straws, fake BRF ...) and "it works"! What no ruminant eats!

For me, it's still a bargain!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 27/10/18, 11:53

to be chafoin wrote:About the problem of mycorrhizas at this border point: Laurent Welsh also says in his conf. that those of the forest compete with those of the meadow and advises to install or maintain rosacea (brambles, small fruit, strawberry, raspberry ...) which would be a good hinge of these spaces since they would have the capacity to come into symbiosis with both types of mycorrhizae.


It defends itself. It is the natural habitat of these shrubs or strawberries. That in the absence of "forest", I feed in BRF ...

Indeed, while my "open environment" vegetables seem to suffer a little from the proximity of my hedge on the north side, "cassis" (blackcurrant-gooseberry hybrids) are resplendent.

Another point: in "agroforestry", the trees should be installed after the vegetable beds. Otherwise, all the space is occupied by the mycorrhizae of the trees, which will not let themselves be dislodged like that! Whereas if the soil is occupied by mycorrhizae from vegetables, it will not be as easy for mycorrhizae from trees to occupy everything. That said, the outcome of the match is known: the trees, with their mycorrhizae, take over. A meadow, naturally, evolves into a wasteland (with brambles) which evolves into a forest ... So the forces at play seem unequal!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 27/10/18, 12:03

to be chafoin wrote:[
Would this work with non-forage legumes, such as beans? Do the latter have the same function you are talking about: the more nitrogen the soil is hungry, the more and better the beans will grow? I ask myself the question because, by dint of making them, I find that the beans work surprisingly well in my vegetable garden. It's such an easy grow, maybe because it's also not a strain that has been adapted to the soil / climate for very long. Apparently the Gauls were already cultivating it, I don't know about the "Gironde" but hey ...


They make symbiotic fixation, like forage legumes, but are much less efficient.

I suppose they are also regulated by a negative "feed-back": the more nitrogen there is in the soil, the less they fix atmospheric nitrogen. On beans, I clearly observed the absence of knots.

So emerges another "system", intermediate:

a) create a hunger for nitrogen
b) grow legumes: beans, beans ... which we can think that they will be less efficient than the same cultivated WITHOUT hunger for nitrogen. But they will still produce something!
c) maybe - probably - the rise of the N rate of the soil, and its ability to produce many other non-nitrogen fixing vegetables will be slower ... But as we harvest already, it will not be so serious ...

Let us note in passing that we are re-inventing the "agricultural revolution of the 18th century", more precisely its first stage: the introduction of legumes instead of biannual or triennial fallows. [This will then allow heavier mechanization, because we can better feed the more numerous draft animals. This will lead to a "capitalistic" evolution because not everyone will have access to this technology, but those who have access to it gain the upper hand ... The others become poorer and become servants to the former.]
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 27/10/18, 12:17

Would we be wicked capitalists without our knowledge? Image
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 27/10/18, 13:22

If we assume that our way of doing things is great, that it has a very high labor productivity, we just have to invest in land, fine-tune the marketing, and potentially, with an insatiable desire to become rich, we should do it! Soon those who have failed by digging mounds will be our minions!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 27/10/18, 17:40

Did67 wrote:Let us note in passing that we are re-inventing the "agricultural revolution of the 18th century", more precisely its first stage: the introduction of legumes instead of biannual or triennial fallows.
Has the nitrogen supply of legumes been verified by agronomic experiments (field measurement with control plot ...)?
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 29/10/18, 23:24

I did not look at it at all but

https://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/1506038044.htm/

For your vegetable garden, your trees, your garden ..... GIVES horse dung all the year !!

Just call us, come with bins, buckets, or a trailer, a shovel is at your disposal.

No limit on the desired quantity! So do not hesitate and it's free!

The dung is mixed with untreated wood chips.



And I did not do a search everywhere in France, I came across it by chance.
In this case it remains to define what is a "SHOVEL" and whether it is mechanical or muscular Image

But I'm sure that ads like this one are everywhere in France
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 08:48

nico239 wrote:I did not look at it at all but

https://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/1506038044.htm/

For your vegetable garden, your trees, your garden ..... GIVES horse dung all the year !!

Just call us, come with bins, buckets, or a trailer, a shovel is at your disposal.

No limit on the desired quantity! So do not hesitate and it's free!

The dung is mixed with untreated wood chips.



And I did not do a search everywhere in France, I came across it by chance.
In this case it remains to define what is a "SHOVEL" and whether it is mechanical or muscular Image

But I'm sure that ads like this one are everywhere in France

I have already said elsewhere, many people have horses, but not the outlet to part with the dung so it must be everywhere that kind of mine to MO, me the difficulty is transport, put it in my SUV inside leather that's not going to do it : Mrgreen:
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to be chafoin
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 10:00

I have plenty of it right next door. Studs, stables ... all the time. Manure at will because indeed they are overflowed (I have already seen a special truck with crane that comes to remove it). I took 2 or 3 years ago to fertilize a few boards in the garden, when I had the opportunity to borrow a trailer for example. I stopped mainly because I find the manipulation tedious for the means that I have. But now I think that manure poses several problems:

: Arrow: it's heavy, it stinks a little and it's not always good quality (it depends on the dry matter that is mixed with the dung and their proportion: if there are a lot of wood chips there may be to be chances that this is a zero sum job)
: Arrow: mushrooms: the excess of phosphorus is harmful to them and the manure contains a lot of this element
: Arrow: there is the problem of antibiotic treatment of horses (perhaps negligible, no or little effects on the soil, plants? to see according to the types of stables: race horses, leisure ...?)
: Arrow: the horses are fed with fodder which itself is certainly fattened in conventional. This is ultimately to fertilize your garden from mineral fertilizers!
: Arrow: if it is ripe manure, we find the same remarks as for the use of compost: pollution (especially CO2, which would prefer to leave the manure for the methanizers?) and substance not nutritious for the organizations laborers of the ground.

It is therefore necessary here, in my opinion, to inquire with the stables to know what is their mode of operation to know in particular how they feed their horses and manage their breeding. I have decided to practice plant fertilization whose benefits well explained by Didier arrange me well. Nevertheless, I do not really have a definite opinion. For Laurent Welsh, animal fertilization is the second pillar for the creation and maintenance of humus. For him, as for the compost, he associates this with the essential role of the ferment, to distil so with art in order to invigorate the processes of the soil and the organic life.
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