Moisture problems, absence of vmc

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
irga
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Moisture problems, absence of vmc




by irga » 04/09/17, 17:37

Hello everyone, I just arrived on this forum. A subject of this forum I am interested in VMC. I live with my father who will have 76 years. He has health problems (kidney failure). I live at home for financial reasons. But his house does not have a VMC. There is no aspirant host either in the kitchen. He changed the doors and windows that were made of wood to have PVC. Sometimes the hinges do not turn anymore and tear when you open a door. It is repaired, but my father does not react. For him a VMC is useless. There is water in the winter down the doors and windows, in some places it's black. with fog in winter. To cook food in the kitchen I have to open the kitchen door even in winter, to prevent the walls from getting wet. For him the solution is to put the heating. Right now the TV remote is working badly, there is water in it. Whenever I tell him it comes from the dampness of the house it makes him angry. He is stubborn. For me the only time you could install a vmc is unfortunately when he died. I do not wish his death, but this situation makes me angry with more depressed. For him, I am wrong and he is right. Even by offering to pay the costs of work it does not give up. How long can this last, after how long the house can hold under these conditions before work is urgent? Thank you for your reply. : Cry:
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Christophe
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Re: moisture problems, lack of vmc




by Christophe » 04/09/17, 17:57

Hi and welcome here

When was the PVC frame installed?

Condensation at the bottom of the opening is not normal (especially if PVC are modern), is there air leakage (poor workmanship?).

Condensation is less related to too much moisture than to a cold surface problem, below the dew point and this condenses ... (the air will never contain more water than it can contain ... at 100% RH we are at 18g of water / m3 at 20 ° C) ... and a VMC will not change much.

On the other hand it is absolutely necessary to ventilate the rooms of water (bathroom and kitchen) ... because they create moisture in suspension (fog, vapor ...) which will thus be added to 18 g / m3 ( see molar curve: fixtures-injection water / moisture-curve-de-saturation-of-the-air-and-rh-mollier-t5928.html )

How much and how is the house heated because if it is poorly heated, it will condense and this even if the house is well ventilated ...

If not, did you measure humidity in% RH? What result?
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irga
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Re: moisture problems, lack of vmc




by irga » 04/09/17, 18:21

pvc doors are 10 years old. I do not think there are faults; Except that my father has surely asked that certain vents at the top of the windows are not like in the kitchen. I do not know how to measure the humidity level in the house, nobody came for that anyway. Yes the rooms and kitchen are aired the best I can. The house is heated with electricity, for a temperature (in winter) about 25 degrees.
the house had a ventilation (it was 40 years old) but the evacuation was done in the attic. So it created problems. My father deleted it because of that. Since for him it's over.
the house also has drop-down shutters installed at the same time as the windows. They also have problems, one day in winter shutters froze and broke opening. The repairers asked if there was a VMC. I answered them no with great regret.
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irga
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by irga » 05/09/17, 17:23

I look at the link with the curve and the graph but these documents do not allow me to find what corresponds to my home; to tell the truth, I do not understand anything. I just described the problems in a concrete way.
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Oc raph
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by Oc raph » 11/12/17, 22:35

irga wrote:I look at the link with the curve and the graph but these documents do not allow me to find what corresponds to my home; to tell the truth, I do not understand anything. I just described the problems in a concrete way.

Hello,
This problem of humidity is well linked to a lack of air renewal. Indoor air is at 25 ° c. This air may contain more water (in grams) than colder air. In short, cold air taken on the outside and warming up, will be much drier than the indoor air and thus reduce the risk of condensation. In addition, the development of mold is a significant health risk and a risk for the structure (development of whiting or fungi).
To limit these risks, it is necessary to ventilate and, when possible, isolate from the outside (this avoids the bad workmanship during the installation of the vapor barrier).
Good luck
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LOGIC12
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by LOGIC12 » 20/02/18, 00:11

hello, When replacing single glazed windows which were not very airtight (which ensured a minimum of air renewal) by PVC windows which, for their part, are very airtight, we make a "pressure cooker" with its House. It is a real disaster. You just need one or two hygrometers to realize this.

A change of windows should not be done without the installation of a VMC, or it is necessary to be a maniac of the very frequent opening of the windows to compensate. Some windows that were probably in trouble, refuse to place new windows if you do not install a VMC

And it needs aeration on the windows of the dry rooms only: room and stay, and in the kitchen, the bathroom and the toilet is made to arrive an aspiration of the VMC.

To measure the humidity level, you need one or two hygrometers (it's worth about 10 to 12 euros in the electricity department, (we can easily find some that are not bad in Leclerc not to mention it and there is the choice) L hygrometry is also linked to that of the outside: in rainy weather it is strong, but also to what is done in the house: kitchen, showers release a lot of steam that must be removed, otherwise it is a real sauna and rots everything.

A VMC is installed in the attic in principle and the evacuation is done outside or hole in the pinion, or most often in the roof (pass the roofer to put an exit).

Otherwise it is difficult to keep a healthy house in these conditions. It would be necessary to make the draft several times a day.

You also need to have a passage of about 12 mm in the bottom of the inner doors (you must pass a finger) for the VMC to operate normally. The air enters the vents on windows of the rooms and the living room, passes under the doors and is sucked by the VMC;

These air intakes should be made, and if necessary, you could install an extractor hood that pulls out at least 300 m3 / h and vent it to the outside. By running it while cooking and also 5 at 10 mn 4 or 5 times a day, it would simply renew the air of the house, and it would clean it up. And for the bathroom, open the window big at least two hours after the shower.

This system may be more acceptable by your father, in the meantime, and that would not prevent a CMV from being placed later. It still needs air inlets on windows, because if we suck air, it must be renewed, otherwise it does not work well.

In the meantime, to clean the rooms, you can, in good weather inspire you with this video:



Otherwise the sheets and even the mattress must be moist, and it is not healthy at all.
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by izentrop » 20/02/18, 09:16

Hello,
He chose the most energy-consuming heating, in addition to 25 ° without ventilation it is breathing a polluted air, plus all the degradations that the humidity causes.
Ventilation is essential in an isolated house. And then we close the breakdowns because we think that it weighs on the heating bill is wrong:
For a simple flow, an average flow rate of 50 m3 / h, 0 ° outside and 25 ° inside: 0.34 x 50 x 25 = 425 W, on 20 kW heating (at random), it is negligible.

As there are no air vents, it can install a double flow to recover some of the heat of the exhaust air, much more expensive to purchase and maintenance, not on whether it is profitable.
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LOGIC12
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by LOGIC12 » 20/02/18, 21:30

Hello,

There would be a solution: The doctor must come to him at home, he should be notified by explaining the problem succintement, and when it comes that he makes the remark that the house is very wet and unhealthy, and he can not stay that way, that it's hurting his health.

If the doctor says it, he may be listening more than you. This is very common with older people.

You could go to the town hall to see the accommodation, to advise (it exists) and these people might be able to change his mind.

But there are even young people and very young people who do not understand either and do not want to understand.

As it will be difficult all the same, at first, make it easy to install a suction HOOD with external exit as indicated previously. You put it all the way and you open one window at a time for 5 mn, and the interior doors for the air to circulate.

The air inlets should be made on windows, but that may be very difficult.

If it is too difficult to make the air inlets (ONLY on windows ROOMS and STAY, there is a solution that told me my window: it is necessary to cut with the cutter about 18 cm of joint in the top You have to look carefully before you cut to make sure that the air will be fine, and you should do it discreetly as if you are cleaning the windows.
It would also be necessary that the interior doors have a passage in the bottom of about 10 to 12 mm (it is necessary to be able to pass a finger) By default leave the half-open.

it will not be enough if you do not suck up the hood by running it a few minutes from time to time and also when cooking.

What kind of heating does it have? electric radiators?

What would probably be a PAC AIR / AIR (basically reversible air conditioning inverter) it consumes 3 or 4 times less than radiators;

And it would take two splits or 3, and it would heat almost everything, plus it would clean up. But it will be for later, because you will never be able to do anything.

You can tell him that because of the poor health of the house his health deteriorates even more, and that he may be hospitalized for a long time, whereas if the house was healthy, he could live longer at home. Well, that would be up to the doctor to tell him, it would have more weight.

Good luck anyway, and in the meantime try to renew the air often but very quickly not to cool too much.

Ah I forgot, given the situation, there would be the solution to have an electric dehumidifier that removes moisture from the air by passing it on a cold plate, and the water is recovered in a tray down which you have to empty. The unit stops when the tank is full.

This is not the ideal solution, but when the situation is blocked, it helps to clean up.

I'm thinking of one thing: I hope it does not have a petrol or gas heater, because if it did, it makes things even worse: it produces as much water as steam consumed fuel is a real cat, and more is dangerous in a house as tight. If this is the case, get help as indicated above.
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Meszigues3
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Re: Problems of humidity, absence of vmc




by Meszigues3 » 22/02/18, 23:53

LOGIC12 wrote: [...] given the situation, there would be the solution of having a dehumidifier electric that removes moisture from the air by passing it on a cold plate, and the water is collected in a tray down which must be emptied. The unit stops when the tank is full.
Hi,

If the father does not want to hear about VMC, it's a good solution.
I have one for a very long time (10 years?) In a humid cellar, which turns all year, with the water that goes into an evacuation. I check it when I think about it, that is, never. The cellar is dry.
If it is difficult to connect to an evacuation, emptying the tub once or twice a day is not too much of a pain.
Very low consumption and participates in the heating of housing.
Price from 100 to 300 euros.
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