inter seasonal storage solar thermal

[Obamot]

oho nice drawing, a little flat the curve ...

Hey, it's still not specified "photovoltaic". Hehee
You should take the right tables and use the right Dede units.
Note that in this one the horizon line is at zero, you should stop snorting the thiazolinones.

[Obamot]

to see this example well "lowcost" with cost / efficiency measures in support.

I don't know if you're doing it on purpose for builditsolar (you skip over so much stuff), but you saw the orientation of the panels, perfectly in their place and good azimuth direction (they're not "on the ground", you just have to see the shadow cast by the barrier), obviously again, it is an "altitude" installation (we can see the mountainous plane behind) so with exceptional sunshine all year round! It has absolutely nothing to do with it. You may know this adage: "cheap is always expensive" (the guy doesn't even seem that the cold is not a criterion as long as you are interested in capturing infrared, which which makes its installation less than optimal.)

Finally, taking the needs of such an installation which seems to be hand-sewn for a passive house (the construction is modern) to extrapolate it to your needs is iniquitous, he has usable eXergy quantities perhaps for him, you he it remains to find/create them and in comparison you have extreme needs. So you can't compare! One cannot simply extrapolate, your installation will be penalized in its performance by its weakest link. Who can reduce to nothing the efforts made elsewhere ... And with DD as an advisor, you go straight into it!

You have to take examples that are adaptable to your case. In any case, there is no point in putting the cart in front of the horse, all the calculations are useless as long as we do not know the nature of your basement, so you have to do some surveys (and while doing so, start to be excavated.)

We understand that you are trying to copy/paste but we cannot encourage you to do that, you will end up with an unusable lambda, as Izentrop and Chrisophe69 have already told you.

Obviously 2 schools are still clashing.

I don't call it "2 schools", between one who finished his own with a diploma and another who gives us approximate theories which we do not know where they come from, there are no photos (my diplomas are on the wall, nothing to prove). hee

To follow the next volley of DD green wood, as usual, finally immune: it doesn't matter to me anymore and no need for his advice.

[dedeleco]

[Flytox Moderation]

lilian07 is right to document, to see the variants, to think, to weigh the pros and cons before rushing into solutions that are not well thought out, expensive, as we see even professionals doing !!

Summer overheaters with overflowing heat not knowing what to do with it, sold often, are a perfect example! !

[Obamot]

[Flytox Moderation]

[lilian07]

Well, I did some calculations with of course not all the parameters (too complex for a lot of people) ... but I tried to wring the neck with a lot of procrastination of this post.

And then it's true that you have to fit in to be more constructive.
Here are the simulated results on my building and on my project location:



In the first analysis I note that with 100 m² of panels oriented 45 ° the optimum at home I miss 27000 Kwh per year .... or the storage to be expected .....

I made these simulations to get closer to reality .... I explored the very detailed herve.silve site ....

Of course I had to make some approximations, I took a lot of parameters ... if you have to add some tell me (not those which will relate to 0.01% of the result please ...)

[lilian07]

I removed the sensors for the DHW because it is confusing in the table ...
On the other hand, I added the lost energy which is very interesting.

the new heating only table ... that's what I want to separate the heating from the DHW .....

[Obamot]

[Flytox Moderation]

If I ever stumble upon something correct, I'll say so, but as it stands it was enough to follow my links, which are serious links from BTP PROS (and even CNRS researchers, who just calculate [Flytox Moderation]

[lilian07]

Obamot should not feel ... it is partly thanks to you that this project started with an idea and then gradually evolved into a kind of hybrid storage ... we are at the sensor and it is still broad as a problem so we are starting again in our faults ... and everyone in fact I think ... for example like several of your writing evokes the impact of the altitude and the assembly ... well it's true you are right we should have started there ... my last painting which fixes the environment.
Then we should have switched to the sensors (the energy we capture) to finally end up with the final effect sought (100% solar autonomy) by inter-seasonal storage.

this is clearly the limit of his forums of all kinds .... either people stick to their ideas and it becomes sterile ... or it's the ego that takes over and it's worse than anything, it totally destroys the thread of the subject. ... and above all the most important there is no frame and it goes all over the place. Which causes enormous interference and where the objective of a forum must be used by everyone, it is no longer useful to anyone ...

That said, for my part, I am always happy to have met people like you who really want to bring things to the community.

[dedeleco]

This point and coherent choice is fundamental:
"the new heating-only table...that's what I want to dissociate the heating from the DHW....." because the conditions are very different, which many construction professionals[Flytox Moderation], do not do correctly, [Flytox Moderation]

lilian07 innovates completely by wanting to achieve what no one, even a pro, does in France :
heat with the sun, free to use and wasted, an old stone house of 250m2 already insulated and with geothermal heat pump of 500m2 on the surface, in a total of 500m2 of house !!

This by trying to recover lost and wasted solar heat,
either in summer kept for the winter (very innovative),
either in winter on adjoining areas without inexpensive solar panels !!

lilian07 has an advantage, 12T for digging and experience, 500m2 free and good methods !!

The geothermal heat pump and the insulation are made by professionals and yet the losses exceed 200kWh / m2year, which shows the extreme difficulty of his goal, who cannot succeed with the usual professional methods [Flytox Moderation]
lilian07 has an essential scientific approach to innovate without trying at random, identify the essential in a simple way, before going into the details of an ill-chosen achievement, as more or less done by professionals who all end up in PACs, by O (the case of CNRS [Flytox Moderation]), without even understanding the dlsc.ca solution, [Flytox Moderation]

To innovate, you also have to try inexpensive tests before embarking on a big achievement !!

A basic choice, and very essential, very rare among professionals, is to choose cheap, therefore not optimal, but allowing a much larger area of ​​sensors, so that the total power obtained is high, instead of a small sensor surface optimized but very expensive, almost ridiculous on the roof, so that it lacks a lot of power in winter.

lilian07 has a nice roof area and even more on the 500m2 of geothermal soil !!
So it can go up to 500m2, but gradually !!

100m2 is a bit tight, even when storing because off-season storage is difficult and therefore requires a good margin, which can be satisfied with a lot of very inexpensive summer collectors !!

His table shows that we must recover 27511kWh out of 54576 previously stored in waste, in approximately 2500 to 5000m3 of earth drilled every 2m.

A real difficulty is that the delta T=34°C is in reality very variable according to the outside temperature Text because it is necessary to have a fixed Tpla for the heated floor.
Tpla has what value for the CAP ?
In principle, not cold winter days require a smaller DT, as 10 ° C outside during the day requires DT = 24 ° C probably ???
In summer the DT can be lower if the outside is very hot and therefore we have more kWh in summer than on the table.

Everything depends on losses between sensors and underfloor heating, and if the heat pump is used with its very low heat pump DT, what is its max COP 10 ????

Its simple table of monthly sun seems to indicate that with the triple of winter collectors one can meet the needs without storing?

I would have put a more accurate column of the kWh/month possible with the sun, just to get your bearings, at different surfaces in relation to needs (instead of making subtractions).
So in winter it takes 3,2 times more surface to meet the needs !!

Storage must be kept from August to September until March.
In winter, production remains above a third of that in summer, which seems to me high and characteristic of this southern region of France, much better than further north.


I think you have to try simplistic tight thin PE pipe, black film between two 30mm greenhouse films, to actually measure the production per m2 according to the DT in winter december january (different flows), to see the minimum limit, not expensive (10 to 15€ per m2), even if the realization is different.

Finally, the total solar production of 95577kWh in one year seems high to me, overestimating the efficiency taken at 70% of the solar collector with 955kWh/m2year for 1400 annual max of the sun???

[Obamot]

[Flytox Moderation] what is frustrating is that there is some truth in there, but return to adversity, no field to discuss.

This is the sad reality Lilian07

... it is partly thanks to you that this project started with an idea and then gradually evolved into a kind of hybrid storage ... we are at the sensor and it is still broad as a problem so we are starting again in our faults ... and everyone in fact I think ... for example like several of your writing evokes the impact of the altitude and the assembly ... well it's true you are right we should have started there ... my last painting which fixes the environment.
Then we should have switched to the sensors (the energy we capture) to finally end up with the final effect sought (100% solar autonomy) by inter-seasonal storage.

It's better...

this is clearly the limit of his forums of all kinds ... or people stay stuck on their ideas and it becomes sterile ...

As already said, you have to be humble and not think that you are going to re-invent the wheel => there are the laws of physics => starting from there you may have new ideas, it is very good if they are "compatible" with said laws, if we deviate from them... I repeat, apart from the idea of ​​genius and which leads to an optimal mix, 99% of the time it is not us who decide , but the technical solutions that are imposed on us. At one point we agreed that going back to the principles that were already working was a good lead, then this wishful thinking got lost in the "avalanche of ideas", that's not how you make a good project, but since that does not concern me, to whoever has these "ideas" to assume. I'm not saying that you shouldn't dig here and there for "economical" materials that suck (quite the contrary). But it is the general approach that does not turn round. (Well that's my opinion.) For me it only makes sense if there is a gain compared to a previous system, and there I see everything, from gardening tarps to bubble wrap packaging in going through bentonite, it's really all and nothing and rather NOTHING as a gain.

[Flytox Moderation]

That said, for my part, I am always happy to have met people like you who really want to bring things to the community.

As said in my previous post, I don't have to intervene much more for the moment.

Let's wait for the results of the polls (we may finally know the room for maneuver, 3 or 4 polls to close a perimeter).