Rock wool and health

[chatelot16]

when you put boron in glass it makes pyrex! whose more scientific name is borosilicate glass! this glass is perfectly durable and not soluble

there have been old glass whose composition was poorly controlled which were a little soluble ... depending on the composition it melts at different temperatures, ert by looking for a composition melting at low temperature to be more economical, there have been bottle that made the wine bad ... it was in 1800 ...

I read I don't remember anymore or that the glass wool was not ordinary glass, but a bit like borosilicate glass to facilitate its manufacture: it does not change anything at all in stability and chemical inertia glass

the problem is rather to look for in the possible glue which gives it its consistency: I have no information on it: it would even be possible that certain glass wool is pure, without glue, the consistency coming only from fibers entangled

I just notice that when you put old glass wool on a fire, it burns a little bit, as if it contained a little bit of fuel

[Flytox]

The finest particles can hardly pass through the masks that filter the gases, I suppose...
It has become very common to find masks that filter fine microparticles (diesel, etc.), it's really not / more a problem, it's gone into the mores.

It seems undisputed that the finest particles are the most dangerous but from what I have seen on the net, we do not know how to stop, with a filter, particles smaller than about 0.3 µm. They pompously call it "absolute filter".

They are in theory capable of stopping 99.995% .... of particles larger than 0.3µ. After what is smaller and more dangerous passes (Brownian movement history which I can no longer find the link.) Found no filter manufacturer who claims to filter smaller.

https://www.airtradecentre.com/pdf/ZZ/D ... R_HEPA.pdf

VWR-HEPA
Diffuser with absolute filter White Steel, RAL 9010
www.airtradecentre.com
Diffusers with HEPA absolute filter type VWR-HEPA
HEPA ceiling diffusers are used for supply or exhaust air applications in air conditioning or ventilation systems in rooms that demand the highest standards for air purity. Hepa diffusers with a class E10 to H14 avoid the absorption of particles larger than 0,3 μm. For initial pressure drop see HEPAFILTER filter. Box provided for filters with a thickness between 60 and 80mm, delivered without filter ...

For the standard with thermal insulation in ceramic fibers (supposed to be less dangerous than asbestos), they make nuances (for the greater satisfaction of lobbies?) ...... there are fibers which are regulated. ..independent of dust (standard to come) but for the same product. Find the mistake...

[SixK]

Rock wool, already you have to use the same protective mask as for asbestos (FP3 it seems to me) ... Asbestos at the base is also a rock.

Is it dangerous or not?
No idea, but when in doubt, I preferred to re-isolate with glass wool and the mask provided for rock wool and asbestos.

Note that after I finished the insulation, I had exercise asthma for 2 months. It ended up going by force of running and spitting everything I could during the first 20 minutes ...

SixK

[PatCaf]

Hello everyone, after a long weekend I discovered your comments and I did not think that my questions would give rise to these debates! to stay on the starting point (health and rock wool), I think Christophe is right. That's why I'm looking for independent studies. Because the article refers to the links between regulatory bodies and lobbies as what happened with the permanent asbestos committee. The article refers to another analysis concerning these relationships

http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/ar ... les-150629

hence my question. Rock wool has health risks, certainly not like asbestos, but still. However, are there independent studies on the subject because the links between manufacturers and control bodies are very ambiguous?

For Obamot: I understand well for the pose etc. but my problem is to diagnose what has been done before. not now. and I am asked about health risks: whether it is professionals or individuals who want to buy or renovate. leave the windows open during the summer months, but we don't live near the equator. so the problem remains intact.

Regarding the comment on intellectual honesty, I agree 100%.

[Obamot]

Patcaf, it seems to me that all your questions have been answered, I add this.

It appears (unless I am mistaken) that you are trying to reassure yourself: or / and if you are well:

Hello,

Property assessor For a while now, I have been faced with a new health problem in my profession:

You should already know the professional standards in force, right ...? (Or at least be required to know them) Otherwise, I can only congratulate you for inquiring about this! (And to take all the measures which will result from your research ... As well for you as for others)

I do not find articles of laws or case law on this while health questions are regularly asked to me. Unofficially of course.

Why "officially", I don't have the feeling that someone has hidden anything in the discussion, and when it comes to the professional approach: on the contrary, we have to talk a lot about these subjects, it's a question of ethics and deontology are the very goal of a profession and the professional requirements that go with it (nothing prevents them from being higher than what is required, moreover, this is already what had made our dean in the seventies ...).

Why besides so much problem for "the existing", no one can be held responsible for hidden defects (or not) of a property, even though there are many constructions that use said materials (on the spot)! You just need to provide a disclaimer regarding this point in your "General Terms"and to make them appear in a clearly visible way while making sign - at a moment of your transaction - a release to cover you. (By saying precisely that "According to the different professional practices in force - in terms of construction and related safety - you can in no case be held responsible (for this or that which depends on the scope of your mandate ...) and that are the ad hoc standards which must apply, it being understood that each BAT participant must reasonably answer for himself everything that arises from his own intrinsic responsibility under the law, and this including everything that is directly related to any other trade and requiring any coordination in this regard - whether for old buildings, in progress or future work - and blah-blah-blah ... " or something like that ... You can also, to supplement, take inspiration from the conditions offered by the competition and see what the insurance plans for - both your own articles which describe the way in which you intervene in the modus operandi - and your own liability insurance coverage: which I strongly advise you to take out.)
As for what is apparent, and if you are from BAT, it is really not difficult to determine where to hide a thermal insulation! There are many tools for this, such as thermography (there are such inexpensive laser tools, even in Hard-D.)

I'm looking for it, everything and its opposite is said on it. Recently this article gives a layer on the subject

I doubt that those who say good things about it are sufficiently informed or are competent enough, I believe that here the information has been given, is from professional and reliable sources (and in my humble opinion).

formaldehyde).

And other insulation containing highly volatile chemical formulas (such as cyanide compounds in polyurethane foams) or boron salt: If it is old construction, and someone has not stirred the wool that supposedly contained it , it's been a long time since the fumes disappeared (I said it was very volatile). In addition, the materials offered for sale themselves meet standards (and therefore these are supposed to meet legal requirements). And you can ventilate very well even in winter (you will be just a little cold) so there is point of pwoblem ...

[does it exist] "Health studies proving that there is nothing to fear?"

The answer is NO (or what emerges from this thread tends to show that they do not go far enough).
And if you have an old building that needs to be rehabilitated: the answer is: 1) protect yourself (and not just the respiratory tract, the whole body, balaclava, gloves, masks for the eyes and throat and tape everything well with 3M to prevent air circulation ...) 2) if it is not planned to dismantle everything, seal while protecting yourself and waterproof (as much as possible, respecting rain / rain + vapor barrier with the ad hoc coef and which will be checked when the building is pressurized if the goal is to "passivate" the building ..) 3) for standards, in my corner (I repeat) we have SIA, Minérgie etc (I am neither in France nor in Belgium, but in one of the published texts reference is made to AFNOR standards for France, otherwise professional associations can provide you with information: everything that is said in this forum is there for information only, and it is in any case not in a place where people speak under a certain anonymity that you will be able to deduce imperative directives from it, even if the people who answer you are of good will: it's up to you to make your own opinion, that makes sense).

Regarding substitute materials, Chatelot suggested that cellulose wadding was possibly dangerous because it contains boron salt. However, it has been shown that in this form it is not (and he tacitly admitted it) that, moreover, the wools to which you refer contain it massively and in a form which is otherwise more "dangerous" although admitted since 'over the counter (if we admit that they are - and if we consider the assimilation by osmosis insufficient - and finally "dangerous" if we do not take all the elementary precaution in order to protect oneself or not proceed possibly not to ad hoc sealing of existing constructions ... etc).

All of his other arguments have been swept away (sorry).

All you risk after that is a bad cold

[PatCaf]

yes i try to reassure myself

and also to reassure my clients (some of whom are friends). that's why I'm looking for information other than the official, just to oppose reality to theory.

for the "unofficially" I was not talking about the discussion on this forum but those that I can have in my job "real life".

as you say, health studies do not go far enough. whose act.

thank you for your comments and happy holidays.

[Bruno69]

Hello

I read your conversation well and I am quite frightened by the turn taken. Clearly, stop beating around the bush. Rock wool is the same filth (at least it is said!) As asbestos except that the toxicity is less strong. But the end result is the same. And industrialists know this. Let's say it the way it is. If we know where we set foot it will already be won. Boycott!

Bio-based products have proven themselves, like straw. and so on. buildings are made of straw and it holds. it's effective. Spread the word. and it's not toxic!

Bruno

[Obamot]

Hello and welcome Bruno.

Do you know a single product "bio-based"(I mean 100% natural and without having been added anything like chemical treatment) which resists the ravages of time with the same outfit as the original? And without having undergone any stabilization treatment using a toxicant, give us examples, it could be interesting!

I only know one (and more that can be recycled without pollution): air!

But its implementation still poses technical problems in the raw state of gas (this is why we try to encapsulate it in foams whose bubbles resist time). So in reasoning agree with you. Maybe not as simple in the app ...

There are different types of insulating materials, all of which have their own characteristics.

If the confinement is likely to be wet (condensation, capillary rise or what do I know that should be avoided) there are hardly any materials that resist in the long term. It is the achile heel of all insulators. To choose - knowing that this would be the case - I will not put cellulose wadding there if possible, as for the non-compacted glass wool, I will of course know that there is a risk of disintegration (j even saw glass wool on a roll on a disintegrated vapor sheet, in a dry place, inside a technical vacuum not subject to condensation, and which had disintegrated ... so indeed, not compacted of origin, it is not a great material, but it was a building of a little more than thirty years!)

Compacted glass wool (therefore which will not settle over time) remains a good choice for the exterior insulation of buildings for the long term! (In particular for passive houses: do not throw the baby out with the bathwater ... We will see in 30 years if the cellulose wadding is able to hold out for so long, do we already have the necessary perspective, should be asked Canadian ... lol)

It has a very low dangerousness insofar as it is confined between the wall and the exterior plaster. And construction managers know how to protect themselves during installation or dismantling ...

The question was rather than when you have two materials which can be suitable and which will offer the same characteristics for the place where they are intended to be used: which one do we take?

The problem with any insulation is therefore the question of its durability over time. And today, are we not entering the era of "sustainable". If so, with the most studied compromises, there is a risk of seeing a strong comeback of materials that do not disintegrate, and therefore synthetic (PU foam, extruded polystyrene, etc.) with the underlying question of their elimination with respect for the environment: that we will then present a little more like materials respectful of the environment, because they hold in the duration and use relatively only very little gray energy in view of their performance ...! !!

[bidouille23]

Hello and happy new year everyone ...

I admit from the outset that I did not read all of the messages (it's done), but I think I understand the general content , not too hard considering the title;) ....


As far as I know:

the fibers are fibers, roughly they are large more or less fine thread which therefore are more or less penetrating in the respiratory tract .... imagined a wall of very small plastic bag and lines which will get lodged in several bags at the same time, to remove the thread it will be complicated ....

A little explanation here

http://www.inrs.fr/accueil/risques/chim ... utres.html

For what I had read on the subject, but I no longer have the source, looking a little for those who are interested will find;) ...
In order of magnitude from the smallest to the largest:

Asbestos

3 * larger than asbestos: rock wool
8 * larger than asbestos: glass wool


basically you die 3 * slower with rock wool and 8 times slower with glass wool ..... But in any case you will have more or less serious respiratory problems depending on the predisposition or weakness of the person subject to dust ....


As Obamot said, if the wool is outside not too much to worry about, except during the break and removal ...

The only problem is that the wool, whether it is glass or rock, has only a small amount of mass, so there can be little inertia so little phase shift .....


To choose between an insulator or another, personally I choose the one I can leave in the garden and which will end up being eaten by decomposition or by insects .... Cellulose wadding (glass of earth likes cellulose very much, after a few years the treatments are no longer effective or can suddenly we can easily imagine that in 20 years there will be no more trace so there will be no particular pollution ....)

Straw, unless it is organic. it contains shorteners and other chemical treatment, which will also be rinsed by the rain, and most of its pollutants have already fallen to the ground before being cut, suddenly once put at the bottom of the garden it compost. ..

Hemp, flax, elephant grass, lime, wood fiber etc etc ...

To choose, try to apply a permaculture logic (making loops of life with the minimum of input and especially no waste), is perhaps the way to take ....

To make rock wool or glass or any other MeerDDDD ... in the genre requires a lot of gray energy for a lifetime and an efficiency not necessarily so good (I speak at the inertia level for a house, because as thermal product rock wool and ceramic are very very very effective ....), why want to continue to listen to the main players in the field that are cstb for example which must be remembered is largely funded by isoverre leading manufacturer glass wool in France ...

Applying the precautionary principle in these conditions does not seem to me to be exaggerated;) ...... but everyone sees noon at their door ....

Yes, there are houses over 100 years old in France with wooden beams ... ... and let it be said story to put a little layer;), the current concrete is formulated to have a life of app 70 years to 80 years maximum if it is well protected,
structures such as bridges have special concrete formulated to have a lifespan of 120 app years.

Assessment, between a house in wooden pole and bale of straw and a house in concrete block and the most durable, economic, respectful of life and the environment it is without question the house of wood straw .....

But if the builders explained this to the future buyers, in addition to explaining to them that the insulation of their walls is potentially dangerous if there is dust passing through the living space, then house sales would certainly drop a lot ... Personally if I build or have built a house it is to leave something to my child, something but especially not a lot of problems to come and even less health problems ....


On this good end of the day anyway;) .....

[Bruno69]

Hello bidouille23

We totally agree. For the links, I add one to complete what you say about the builders and your example of asbestos

http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/sante ... ple-160673

this is the continuation of the first link given by PatCaf. Instructive

Bruno