Here it is cold is already there!

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Grelinette
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Here it is cold is already there!




by Grelinette » 11/10/13, 14:33

Summer had already struggled to arrive, and this morning 3 degrees on the thermometer in the garden: a fall of almost 10 ° in a few days ... and in the sweet country of Provence! So I dust off the traditional subject of radiators (which has probably already been discussed in this place).

To overcome the ambient cold of our home (very poorly insulated) I am offered an oil-bath radiator, explaining to me that it is ultimately the most efficient ... and presto, I ask gougueule's opinion.

I found an interesting discussion that re-establishes the truth in this jungle of slogans from comfort merchants who are starting to exhibit their new innovative and revolutionary heating products.

Here are some selected pieces from the debate:

Radiant heaters
A little technique to avoid arguing about performance based on a commercial quality that means nothing. These are the ones found on the advertising brochures intended to abuse people's credulity.
All electric heaters that operate by Joule effect work very well. They are all approved for safe operation.

A radiator how it works is a simple reminder! !
At one time of the year, if it is necessary to dissipate 2 kW-h to maintain an ambient air of 21 ° C in a room, all the radiators or other electrical devices will do the job as long as they dissipate 2 kW-h .
It is possible to use a low-end convector, and other oil, ceramic, storage radiators, cast iron blocks, heat transfer fluids, heat pipes.
The same result will be obtained with irons, baking trays, toaster bars provided that they dissipate 2 kW-h.
In electricity when we dissipate 2 kW-h we consume on the meter 2 kW-h.

As far as heating performance is concerned, there is no point in using high-end radiators.
All radiators transmit heat according to three main phenomena. Thermal radiation, natural convection and forced convection when there is ventilation.
The accumulation which one sells on certain radiators is in fact interesting only to exploit the naivety of people.

However, radiators which have a large thermal mass often have large, insulated exchange surfaces and operate at lower temperatures. They are also often more aesthetic. But I insist heavily, radiators only provide the energy they consume. No manufacturer displays it in the pub. They let shine by pseudo scientific explanations that the yield is better but it is false. It's just to deceive people.
Conclusion:
If you just want to heat your house you can use low-end convectors certified NF. It will cost you around 40 Euros for a 2000 Watt h radiator
If you want to be ripped off you can use very high end. It will cost you around 1500 Euros for 2000 Watts h. 40 times more, a straw! ! !

If you want to know the reality of the accumulation here are explanations: The specific heat of the ceramics, fluids and metals used vary roughly between 1 and 2 calories to raise by 1 ° C a gram of matter.
To raise a 30kg (20g) radiator from 20 ° C, you need a maximum of 000 calories or 600 kcal. Knowing that a kW h = 000 kcal the radiator can store around 600 kW or 860 watts. When a 0.7 kg radiator consuming 700 kWh is connected, it will restore within the first hour 20 - 2 = 2000 watts-h and not 700 watts. When you disconnect the same radiator, it will dissipate what it has garnered, that is to say the 1300 watts. It is easy to see in a scientific way that the heat balance is equivalent to a simple convector.


..the oil baths are low temperature convectors, so just a little comfort. Otherwise 2kw is 2kw ... A beamer is only interesting ON CONDITION to be seated in front, so in practice, there is only one in front of the sofa in front of the TV ... So it's not with that we reduce our bill by choosing radiant. ...
What is really effective in limiting the cold wall effect is simply the choice of wall covering ... A wooden covering is warm, a coating (even lime) is cold ...


The full discussion is there: http://forums.futura-sciences.com/habitat-bioclimatique-isolation-chauffage/347819-radiateur-a-bain-dhuile-interessant.html
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Grelinette
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by Grelinette » 11/10/13, 15:06

I add a little question:

To warm a room in a house, when there is a beautiful sun (like today), is it more efficient to make the sun warm the room through a large window or bay window facing south, or that it heats the air through a large black solar panel, and that this hot air is ventilated in the room?

For example - thermal window shutters which contain a coil where the air which is propelled into the room heats up ... In addition we can orient the shutter as well as possible towards the sun ...
"The heating shutter", hey, isn't that a good idea for a patent? Hello, the inpi ... Image
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BobFuck
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by BobFuck » 11/10/13, 15:26

I summarize you (according to the book of Oliva), in our climates:

- A window (even overpriced) insulates much less than a properly insulated wall. When the shutters are closed it's better, but still not at the level of a good wall.

- But a window to the south (even inexpensive double glazing as long as the joints are not screwed up) brings more heat from the sun than it loses, so it has a positive outcome (as long as the shutters are open When the sun shines).

- A solar panel earns less than a window of the same surface oriented in the same way when the sun is shining (because there are more losses), but the solar panel has no losses when the sun is not shining, and can be oriented optimally.

Otherwise, you're a little reinventing the tornado wall ...

As long as you put the panels, you might as well orient them correctly (facing south on the roof and at a 70 ° slope) and also open the shutters ...
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by gegyx » 11/10/13, 15:30

Obviously, 2KW of 230V gives 2KW of heat.

That a basic convector does it immediately

But a storage heater distributes its stored heat over a longer period, once it is turned off.

Interest with a "off-peak" or other subscription, when the KW meter is at the lowest price.
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Gaston
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by Gaston » 11/10/13, 15:44

gegyx wrote:Interest with a "off-peak" or other subscription, when the KW meter is at the lowest price.
For that, you need a (very) large mass.
Several hundred kg to stay warm between 7 a.m. and 11 p.m. ...

Oil bath radiators of around XNUMX kg can only store for a few tens of minutes ...
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Grelinette
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by Grelinette » 11/10/13, 15:53

gegyx wrote:Interest with a "off-peak" or other subscription, when the KW meter is at the lowest price.

The interest of the "off-peak" subscription is very relative because when it is cold, it is cold, whether in the morning, there noon or in the evening!
We do have a off-peak rate from 23 p.m. to 7 a.m., but it is difficult in very cold weather to heat only at night to have a correct room temperature all day by restoring the heat accumulated in the radiators.

We come back again and again to the common sense solution of good insulation but I am surely in the case of a large majority:

- either tenant (this is my case) in poorly insulated accommodation, so no investment is possible
- either owner with an inaccessible investment to insulate his home

... hence the search for economical and efficient point-to-point heating.
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 11/10/13, 19:13

the advantage of the solar panel on the window is that the water circuit of the panel only turns on when it brings in heat ... never a loss

the window brings in heat, but when it does come out you can't completely block it ... even with shutters closed it loses more than a wall

Electric heating ? no miracle ... big accumulation in a pile of brick? to take advantage of the difference in day and night rates? there are especially those who sell miracle radiators overpriced without any profitability

heat pump? there is a way to do things well with water water heat pump ... but nothing possible to rent with the current equipment

wood heating? I have my solution, even without a chimney duct: heat recovery system with complete cooling of the smoke allowing the smoke to come out by any plastic pipe only drawback: electricity essential ... but fairly complicated and not still salable

solution to remember: simple wood stove ... a long time ago there were smoke pipes in all the accommodation, but alas it's over! I saw housing upgraded to rental standards with all the lamentably suppressed smoke pipes! tenant sentenced to electric heating

the excess of safety standard on the smoke pipes has the opposite effect: we remove them to avoid taking risks ... the old smoke pipe that has worked for a century is suppressed to avoid paying the cost '' put in a stainless steel tubing
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by the middle » 13/10/13, 08:02

wood heating? I have my solution, even without a chimney duct: heat recovery system with complete cooling of the smoke allowing the smoke to come out by any plastic pipe only drawback: electricity essential ... but quite complicated and not still salable

Yes, chatelot, this idea has been trotting in my head for a long time, I am amazed that industrialists have not thought of it.
Throwing the slightest calorie into the chimney saddens me.
In my opinion, you need a good air / air exchanger, self-cleaning, a "gas" vacuum cleaner, and a bypass in case of problem.
In my opinion, it's not that complicated to do. (For an industrialist) :D
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