New gas for air conditioning HFO-1234yf, worse and worse?

Discussion of methods of remediation and control air quality.
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chatelot16
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New gas for air conditioning HFO-1234yf, worse and worse?




by chatelot16 » 17/01/12, 13:50

Hello

I have not found or opened this discussion ... and as it is a reaction to what I just heard on television I put it here ... it can always be moved to a better place

I have just seen to the information of the problems related to this flammable gas, the combustion of which makes lactically flammable fluoric acid

will never end to replace the old R12 and R22 freon really polishing, new gas worse and worse, just a little less polishing but increasingly dangerous for the user

yet the solution exists R290 and R600a is the good old propane and butane, just a little dangerous as flammable, but we already mastered the danger of 50 liter of gas, 100g mastering propane and more is not a feat

and with 100g of propane the fireman will put out a car fire with the usual means ... without risking serious burn through the clothes as with the fluoric acid of this new infernal gas

the use of simple gas such as butane propane can simply drain the air to the slightest doubt on the watertightness, or in case of non-use ... how many people walks these gas m .... not even using their air conditioning!

for clim there is also the CO2 really safe for anyone but alas operating at high pressure, which makes the material much more expensive
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by dedeleco » 18/01/12, 04:06

This gas is good for the ozone layer, and a good poison such as fluorine, like that of over-heated frying pans.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,3,3-t% ... op%C3%A8ne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene

http://www.lepost.fr/article/2012/01/17 ... tures.html
The HFO-1234yf, that's his name, is a refrigerant that is very flammable. It is from 405 ° that it ignites, but in the fire of a vehicle, the temperature rises to more than 1.200 °.

If you have an accident with this vehicle and a fire breaks out, this fluid produces during its combustion a gas which in contact with water generates an acid particularly dangerous for man: hydrofluoric acid. This water can come from either the coolant or the windshield washer, or also from firefighters' pipes that extinguish the fire.

Hydrofluoric acid is one of the most potent and toxic acids available and has the unique property of dissolving most metals and piercing glass.

Yesterday on France Info, Jean-Rémy Macchia drew our attention by mentioning that a few milliliters of this acid on the palm of the hand, even diluted in water was deadly.

Hydrofluoric acid then passes into the tissues of the human body in a completely painless way, but unfortunately it attacks the nervous system. The pain is manifested only a few hours later, which can not be relieved by any current medication. Death follows a few days later.

Firefighters who come to extinguish the fire of a vehicle whose air conditioning system contains this fluid, will also be fatally affected by this gas.

MEP EELV MEP Michèle Rivasi, will today try to alert the European authorities about the danger of this fluid that should arrive in cars imminently. It wants to ban it, which is going to be very difficult and probably impossible, given that at the moment the chemical lobby is so strong that some automakers are starting to use this refrigerant.

Invited this morning on France Info, Michele Rivasi explained that there were alternatives to replace the current fluid that emits a lot of CO2, but they are much more expensive.

However, in March 2009, the Deutsche Umwelthilfe (German Agency for Aid to the Environment), in a press release, had already drawn attention to the use of toxic products from the fluorine industry in order to replace the current polluting refrigerant. It indicated that tests on this 1234yf refrigerant revealed that there washuge risks for car passengers and first-aiders in case of fire adding that the chemical industry was acting without any consideration for the potential victims of an accident. According to Michèle Rivasi, this morning on France Info, the physicists who made these tests will be present at the European authorities today.
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by dirk pitt » 18/01/12, 14:22

I heard this morning that this gas had been approved for use as a refrigerant. I can not understand how the certifying bodies could have missed this problem.
and do not bring me back the conspiracy theory.
would not there be something that escapes us, from the style an additive that will prevent the HFO-1234yf from decomposing into Hydrogen Fluoride. Excuse the question con, I'm not a chemist.
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by dedeleco » 18/01/12, 14:57

Dangerous fluorine, we eat everywhere, in our toothpaste, our frying pans, etc .. so a little more for the industry, deregulated in the US, it's nothing.
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by chatelot16 » 18/01/12, 22:24

Fluoridic acid is dangerous

the fluoride salt of the toothpaste does not burn therefore will never make fluoric acid

polytetrafluroethylene teflon stove does not burn alone ... unless you leave the stove empty on a large fire

the danger is known for the soldering of plastics: never try to sold teflon ... we are on to finish death intoxicated

this new gas is hellish because it is both combustible and toxic when burned

it is said that it produces fluoric acid with water: it does not even need water: the other combustion makes a little water vapor; when the smoke meets a cold surface there is condensation ... and formation of fluoric acid, so toxic that even if the amount is low it is serious anyway

we must choose, the old freon was also toxic in case of thermal decomposition but as it was not combustible its thermal decomposition was rare

if you want to accept a combustible refrigerating gas, it must be absolutely nontoxic, like butane or propane that is burned under our saucepan in our kitchen ... we put it in all the aerosol bombs ... even if it produces accidents when it is abused in a small bathroom it is enough to know this danger to avoid it
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