Debate on debt and false pretenses

[Did67]

That said, I agree that banks don't have to create money,

They increase the "money supply": a note is created by the central bank, but then it circulates: we pay you your salary with it, you go to the supermarket to do some shopping, who pay their cashier who pays EdF who buys a nuclear power plant , etc etc etc ... With dematerialization (electronic money), things are accelerating ...

So in the "money supply", economic actors necessarily play in this circulation, real or virtual. Banks, with dematerialization (credit cards), loans from some with money deposited by others, necessarily accelerate these circuits ... This is their role ...

[swift2540]

Having said that, I agree that banks do not have to create money, it should only be possible for central banks, and with restrictions.
On the other hand, if governments had not so much blazed and created such a deficit everything would be

So the problem with the current system is that few people earn a lot, while many "row" to earn a hoot.
If the state retains the currency, no more worries.
You just have to "tie up" the law!
Most of the time, in a code (a tax law for example), what is not prohibited is authorized.
Return the code; what is not allowed is prohibited. Much more difficult to divert, right?

[Did67]

Creating value means working, right?
...

It seems a little more complex to me.

Working (in the sense of "exercising a paid activity"; what we were talking about here) can be done without creating a lot of value (low labor productivity, eg wanker, incompetent, clumsy, etc. ... or even lack of "materials" to transform, absence of beneficiaries of a service ...).

You can work without creating value: on even days, shovel a pile of sand from left to right and on odd days, from right to left [there, I'm exaggerating a little; but hey, in the turmoil of our world, it seems to me that there are "agitations" that are similar to that!]

And we can create value without working: volunteering ...

I think, but this should be looked into further, that the notion of work has "camouflaged" the notion of "value creation". We need value (goods, services). I even think that it is one of the misfortunes of our materialist societies.

If we were confused more often in terms of "value" than GDP, turnover ...

[sen-no-sen]

I think, but this should be looked into further, that the notion of work has "camouflaged" the notion of "value creation". We need value (goods, services). I even think that it is one of the misfortunes of our materialist societies.

If we were confused more often in terms of "value" than GDP, turnover ...

I don't understand how today's society does not create more value than before?
Unless you speak of moral value?
GDP, turnover are only means for measuring its creation of values.
What you need is more human value, is that what you meant, right?

[Philippe Schutt]

We can work without creating value: on even days, shoveling a pile of sand from left to right and on odd days, from right to left

yes and the 2 values ​​are counted in the GDP while the result is zero. This is proof that it is a stupid indicator and that we are entertained, provided that we keep quiet and let the big guys play in peace.

To be fair, the notion of negative value for all that is polluting should already be introduced. If it is, some activities would be generally negative !!

[chatelot16]

it's scary ... I already had a doubt about the GDP but I have the impression that we see the problem here

if a big company manufactures cars by also manufacturing all the components, and even steel and aluminum it will count only once in the gdp

if a lot of small companies sell subsets and services, how is it counted?

[Did67]

I don't understand how today's society does not create more value than before?
Unless you speak of moral value?
GDP, turnover are only means for measuring its creation of values.
What you need is more human value, is that what you meant, right?

1) I think out loud, it's always a bit risky!

2) No, I'm not talking about moral or human value.

I am talking about the economic value of a good or service. Which I think is poorly translated into the price (monetary value of this good or service):

- you go to the hairdresser, he cuts your hair; it takes 15 minutes (average of all hairdressers): we can say that this service, that you "want" (you do not want to be hairy but to please uax women who like well-haired men ... .), at a certain value, both in your eyes (the value of your desire) and for the hairdresser (he devotes a certain time to it, uses skills, resources - his salon, electricity, etc. ...). There is an adequacy between "your" value and that of the hairdresser: you agree to pay for this cut 22,50 € (valuation in our currency for this service).

There, it's simple.

But now let's take the "absurd" example of my piles of sand. There is no value: the pile of sand is always the same and goes back to square one. I imagined that there was work (for example, an organization that pays to employ unemployed people) ...

So I dissociate "work" (in the sense of paid activity) from "creation of value".

Alros bine ^ sur, this is absurd, as I say.

But now let's take lambda. He has an X brand phone which works very well ... By dint of seeing his entourage of Iphone Ys, he thinks that he is "diminished" if he does not have one too.
So he buys the Iphone Y.

From an economic point of view, there is creation of "value": it makes business, GDP ... Maybe lambda he got into debt, so it also makes the turnover for the organization which him. granted a revolving loan ...

He still just calls! [lamba is, like me, a boon, all the features of the iPhone Y, he only uses 5%]. What additional "value" does he have in his new phone: being like the others? please women who like the Iphone Y?

But we can clearly see that "all that for that": is the cost of the operation related to the gain in "value" ???

And when it comes to "speculation" (so "traders" who sell "coupons" on wheat which has not yet been sown, some speculating on a climatic accident which will drive up prices and others on an overproduction which will lower it), we come to situations where there is no longer any link between "economic value" - what is the value of wheat that does not exist? - and "money" ... And when there is no longer a link, it is what we could also call a "crazy system" ...

It may not be clear ... ????

PS: we could of course add to this a debate on morals (to enrich ourselves without doing anything but speculate) or on humans in all this (what will these traders think when they are faced with their cancer? And when we will put them in the hole?). There, obviously, it becomes even more complicated and philosophical ...

[Did67]

if a lot of small companies sell subsets and services, how is it counted?

No, it's not that crazy: GDP is the sum of the values ​​of goods and services end (we deduct intermediate consumption = the goods used to produce another good; therefore only the consommé by households and other economic actors and invests by companies = what is called an immobilization of capital as opposed to consumption = "destruction" of the good ...

[sen-no-sen]

And when it comes to "speculation" (so "traders" who sell "coupons" on wheat which has not yet been sown, some speculating on a climatic accident which will drive up prices and others on an overproduction which will lower it), we come to situations where there is no longer any link between "economic value" - what is the value of wheat that does not exist? - and "money" ... And when there is no longer a link, it is what we could also call a "crazy system" ...

It may not be clear ... ????

Ok it was me who had misunderstood, indeed, and this is one of the major problem, the economy is far too virtual nowadays.
For a trader, for example, “making a living in the sweat of his brow” does not mean much.
The problem is that this crazy system has become the norm ...

[Did67]

And like Dupont de Dupond, I would even say more:

- it is even "magnified" and presented as the "absolute success"!

- that is to say if the situation is serious!