Balance well to the wheel of a car: H2, diesel and gasoline

[Christophe]

The fact remains that the final price including tax per kWh of petrol or diesel is roughly equivalent to that of electric kWh.

Really?

a) 1L of petroleum fuel at 1.3 € contains 10kWh with an average efficiency of 25% you make 2.5KWh useful mechanical ie 1.3 / 2.5 = 0.52 € / kWh useful

b) The price of electricity in France is 0.12 € / kWh including subscription. With an average efficiency of an electric vehicle "wheel drive" of 70% we therefore have a useful kWh price of 0.12 / 0.7 = 0.17 € / useful kWh.

So "roughly equivalent" with a coef of 0.52 / 0.17 = 3 (= 3 times cheaper for electricity) ... well, I find it hard to understand the "roughly equivalent" ...

But you may have made another reasoning that I would like to study ...

Because to arrive at an "equivalent" price it would be necessary that the efficiency of the socket at the wheel of an electric vehicle is also of the order of 25%, something that nobody wants if?

that it was necessary to increase the price of the electric kWh on the grounds that the km traveled with electricity was cheaper than the km traveled with petroleum ... I couldn't help telling him that it was not the fault in the price of energy but rather in the higher energy efficiency of the electric car ...

a) Already you just contradicted yourself ... is it cheaper or same price?

b) He is right, not vis-à-vis the EPR but there is no reason why the electro-road kWh should not be taxed at the same level as petroleum kWh.

c) Anyway do not dream: public charging stations (which already cost a fortune to the community) will see their kWh electrorouters very quickly overtaxed ...

First we pate the pigeon so that it is equipped and afterwards ... very classic technique of the government in matters of taxation ...

d) What did he say to you?

This report was "buried" because it displeased the French manufacturers to be singled out as responsible for half a million deaths per year ... The same manufacturers are active in providing pollution control solutions (particle filters) ...
For the "anecdote", the first speed of this pollution were the cyclists who circulate in the city ...

The fact that pollution kills more than accidents is a fact that already scares the authorities and the population a great deal, but we must stop with the numbers skewed ...
Because 500 for France alone ??? Sorry but that is nonsense ...

It seems to me "a little" a lot anyway: if it were true in 20 years France would have lost millions of inhabitants ...

Or http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9mog ... _la_France

France gained 1,7 million inhabitants between 1999 and 2004, an average growth of 0,58% per year over this period. For 2006, the increase is estimated at 393 inhabitants.

Another report speaks of 30 deaths a year for France, that's already more credible, everything is here: https://www.econologie.com/les-morts-de- ... -2948.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/les-morts- ... t1901.html

"France alone would see 31 deaths from air pollution per year, including 700 (17%) attributable to road traffic alone !!"

An "interesting" comparison between pollution and road accident is also made by the author of this article:

"exhaust fumes from cars, motorcycles and trucks kill 2,4 times more than road accidents !! The real obituary report of the road amounts to 17 + 600 = 7242 deaths per year!"

[I Citro]

The fact remains that the final price including tax per kWh of petrol or diesel is roughly equivalent to that of electric kWh.

Really?

Houlà and in what the output of the apparatus which uses kWh (that they are petroleum or electric) would modify their selling price.

You read my words diagonally and interpreted it against my will. If manufacturers manufactured the thermal car at 2 liters per 100km dear to Michel Kieffer, the question would not arise.

Then you truncated my quote:

citro wrote:
that it was necessary to increase the price of the electric kWh on the grounds that the km traveled with electricity was cheaper than the km traveled with petroleum ... I couldn't help telling him that it was not the fault in the price of energy but rather in the higher energy efficiency of the electric car ...

It was not me who said that, but a senator whom I hastened to crop to be repacked by the president of an association on electric mobility who replied that it was the same!
Well no, it does not amount to the same thing!

It is as if you were saying that you have to tax the electricity that powers heat pumps because their efficiency is 3 times that of an electric radiator.

The senator in question who does not know anything in technique said that electricity was cheaper than petroleum, I contradicted it (the prices including taxes of kWh petroleum or EDF are comparable)

Regarding the WHO report, I lack details, the source of the info is different.

[Christophe]

Houlà and in what is the efficiency of the device that uses kWh (whether petroleum or electric) modify their selling price.

You read my words diagonally and interpreted it against my will. If manufacturers built the thermal car at 2 liters to 100km Dear to Michel Kieffer, the question would not arise.

Houla bis ... there you contradict yourself again in the space of 2 lines ... we take consumption / yield into account or not?

Because consumption and yield are linked ...

My reasoning is correct: to have the cost of energy it is necessary to transform them into useful kWh.

It is as if you were saying that you have to tax the electricity that powers heat pumps because their efficiency is 3 times that of an electric radiator.

I do not see the report because it is not a road use ... on the other hand driving electrically at the price of domestic kWh, it is as if we were saying: you can ride the heating GO or worse, kerosen (no TIC TIPP above) !!

Remember the failure of the C3 GNV !! CNG for road use was not sold at the price of town gas, yet it is the same product in the same pipes ...

There was a special gas meter for the C3. A nice foutage of mouth yes ...

(the prices including taxes of kWh petroleum or EDF are comparable)

Ah that's it I understand what you mean:

1.3 € / 10 kWh = 0.13 € / kWh petroleum = close to 0.12 € / kWh electric at Edf. Well sorry but this is a reasoning that is spurred ...

Indeed; you compare 2 energies of a different type ... so this is not valid unless you have on hand a motor which converts with an output of 100% the petroleum kWh into electric kWh. I do not have.

When we compare energies it is for service rendered equivalent.

Regarding the WHO report, I lack details, the source of the info is different.

Ben source or not, it's bullshit ...

But you may be confused: 500 deaths from pollution per year on a global scale it is probable but surely not on the scale of France.

I just made a specific subject: should we tax the kWh of electric transport? https://www.econologie.com/forums/voiture-el ... 10007.html

ps: I am not against the electric car you know it well Citro but I am afraid that that will end in fiasco for those which believed there. I took the defense of the electric car here a few minutes ago: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post178908.html#178908

[I Citro]

I prefer to "make pie chart" on the WHO report, I have no marbles, and I am certainly talking nonsense

Houlà and in what is the efficiency of the device that uses kWh (whether petroleum or electric) modify their selling price.

It is as if you were saying that you have to tax the electricity that powers heat pumps because their efficiency is 3 times that of an electric radiator.

I do not see the report because it is not a road use ... on the other hand driving electrically at the price of domestic kWh, it is as if we were saying: you can ride the heating GO or worse, kerosen (no TIC TIPP above) !!

For the moment, there is no specific taxation of "road electricity" and this is the first obstacle to the development of these vehicles. This problem is important, because unlike the fumarol which is added to diesel to make domestic fuel oil, it is difficult to add a dye to electricity and even more difficult to trap a fraudster who would not use the " good electricity "...

[Indeed; you compare 2 energies of a different type ... so this is not valid unless you have on hand a motor which converts with an output of 100% the petroleum kWh into electric kWh. I do not have.

When we compare energies it is for service rendered equivalent.

Well I do not agree, because this "equivalent" service varies according to technological developments, just as the heat pump has changed the efficiency and therefore the "equivalence of services rendered", the thermal car can technically be content with 2 liters per 100km and the electric car can still evolve ...

In a different register, the technocrats gave us a "constitutional treaty of the European Union" by erecting capitalism as an economic framework while this century has seen other economic models pass and capitalism is bankrupt they wanted to impose on us in a sustainable way an outdated economic system and forbid us to evolve towards new forms of economy (rendering a service much higher than this "capitalist standard").

Our world is evolving at a very high speed and so are our technologies.

ps: I am not against the electric car you know it well Citro but I am afraid that that will end in fiasco for those which believed there. I took the defense of the electric car here a few minutes ago: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post178908.html#178908

I know it well but this debate is close to my heart because it allows me (us?) To refine our perceptions and our understanding of the situation.
Many players are struggling to seal the advent of the electric car while it will accelerate the inevitable eviction of heat engines in the city. The biggest project concerns the behavioral changes of all these motorists who take their vehicle to move a few hundred meters ...