Bonus Malus for cars: that explains the problem?

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by Christophe » 19/06/08, 22:44

Yeah, I noticed that OpenOffice was very "restrictive" even very boring graphically ... compared to Excel ... that's to say!
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by Woodcutter » 19/06/08, 23:02

Yeah, but I'm still in XL ...

Well it fed me, I changed but I would not resume.
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by martien007 » 20/06/08, 00:57

Christophe wrote:
martien007 wrote:Watch out, did67 is in the package of cons : Lol: because it has a C5, but equipped with LPG, for me it is equivalent to a small one in terms of GLOBAL pollution (+ CO2 but so much less breathable pollution; like this, it will release an official study on the damage of pollution in the city on health).


Do you understand Martian? : Shock:

Ok lumberjack

Easy Martian:
"it is equivalent to a small car"

the Martian it means that:

1 - a C5 is in the category of large petrol sedans which must certainly be taxed with a penalty.

2 - this stupid bonus-penalty "made in Boorlo" only takes into account the CO2 emitted and not the pollutants (particles, NOx, etc.) which also come out of the exhaust.

3 - so I say that the C5 of did67 equipped with LPG (little emitter of pollutants, it is now recognized) should not be penalized by an ecological penalty, because we only take into account the CO2 emitted and not the other pollutants which are very dangerous for the health of humans who breathe these pollutants (follow my gaze towards diesel particles, which are entitled to a bonus more easily thanks to a lower CO2 emission, which is absurd).

So we should classify this C5 car once equipped with LPG in a bonus category. (not certain that the C5 is in the "malus" category but if it is the case, whoever wants to have it fitted with LPG within 3 years is not entitled to the subsidy since the vehicle must emit less than 120 or 130 g CO2 / km). did67 did it on occasion of under 3 years and paid 3000 euros for LPG installation, but it is not more expensive than buying the same vehicle in Hdi diesel, so he preferred greener choice than the diesel ..... if in addition we question the theory of global warming by CO2, the reasoning holds even more the road.

The ecological bonus-malus system as it is currently has already been dezinced by scientists and doctors because it indirectly (and certainly voluntarily) favors diesel vehicles: issue of the "health magazine" on FR5 this week.
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by bamboo » 20/06/08, 10:20

Crispus wrote:@ ex-oceano: the penalty is less expensive than a sticker, you only pay for it with the purchase, and not by installments.
It should be noted that the most "wealthy" buyers bought their vehicles "at a penalty" at the end of 2007. That is to say more tax revenue in 2007, but obviously a corresponding hole in 2008.


I agree with this fact: purchases of large vehicles were advanced to late 2007 while purchases of small vehicles were postponed to early 2008

=> there is inevitably an imbalance for the beginning of the year 2008 (less big, more small), but it should be rebalanced by moving forward in the year.

It is far too early to make in-depth analyzes of the system's deficits. Let's wait until the end of 2008 to see the trend!
And then if there is really deficit, it will suffice to shift the bar of neutrality! Not very complicated.
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by Woodcutter » 20/06/08, 13:40

martien007 wrote:[...] 2 - this stupid bonus-malus "made in Boorlo" only takes into account the CO2 emitted and not the pollutants (particles, NOx, etc.) which also come out of the exhaust. [...]

We must put the Grenelle reflections into context!

Many people tend to believe (and some say ... : roll:) that this bonus / penalty rewards "low-polluting" cars ...

This is not at all why this incentive system was designed.
The starting point is: how to reduce CO2 emissions?
From there, we can talk endlessly about whether it's enough or not ...

For my part, I tend to believe that the damage caused by warming will be much greater than that caused by particles, by the very fact that they are overall, while the particle problem is local, and moreover, very linked to data societal...

To return to CO2, it must be noted that the effect is real, and therefore this type of incentive can serve as an example and be generalizable, improving it with constraints on pollutants if necessary.


martien007 wrote:[...] if in addition one questions the theory of global warming by CO2, the reasoning holds even more the road. [...]
In France, apart from the branquignoles in loss of media speed and who want to be "buzzed", who calls into question the CO2 and the human responsibility in the warming? : roll:


martien007 wrote:[...] The ecological bonus-malus system as it currently is has already been dezinced by scientists and doctors because it indirectly (and surely voluntarily) promotes diesel vehicles [...]
Already said in another post, but I put it back here: the Bonus / Malus system does not favor Diesel, it promotes technologies that emit little CO2! :frown:

If CNG pumps were common on the territory and easy storage, we would see these models flourish!

The development of Diesel, even on small urban vehicles, which is nonsense, corresponds for manufacturers (who are not neither green, nor philanthropic but industrial!) To an acceptable techno-economic otptimum ...
If the constraint changes, for example with an advance of Euro6 (and this is where politicians have a strong responsibility!) And the data of the problem changes and we see other solutions appear, this is what is happening at PSA, in particular.
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by Did67 » 20/06/08, 14:20

martien007 wrote:Watch out, did67 is in the package of cons: lol: because it has a C5 ...


Hey guys, be a little charitable: a WAY CON, I don't mind (it's still not an SUV or a 4 x 4!). BIG, no, I think it would be a bit harsh (but you can dare!).

And actually, I wouldn't have it if it weren't for LPG
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by Did67 » 20/06/08, 14:34

martien007 wrote:
Christophe wrote:
martien007 wrote:Watch out, did67 is in the package of cons: lol: because it has a C5, but equipped with LPG, for me it's equivalent to a small one in terms of GLOBAL pollution (+ CO2 but so much less breathable pollution; this subject, he will release an official study on the damage of pollution in town on health).


Do you understand Martian? : Shock:

Ok lumberjack

Easy Martian:
"it is equivalent to a small car"

the Martian it means that:

1 - a C5 is in the category of large petrol sedans which must certainly be taxed with a penalty.

YES

2 - this stupid bonus-penalty "made in Boorlo" only takes into account the CO2 emitted and not the pollutants (particles, NOx, etc.) which also come out of the exhaust.

YES

3 - so I say that the C5 of did67 equipped with LPG (little emitter of pollutants, it is now recognized) should not be penalized by an ecological penalty, because we only take into account the CO2 emitted and not the other pollutants which are very dangerous for the health of humans who breathe these pollutants (follow my gaze towards diesel particles, which are entitled to a bonus more easily thanks to a lower CO2 emission, which is absurd).

So we should classify this C5 car once equipped with LPG in a bonus category. (not certain that the C5 is in the "malus" category but if it is the case, whoever wants to have it fitted with LPG within 3 years is not entitled to the subsidy since the vehicle must emit less than 120 or 130 g CO2 / km). did67 did it on occasion of under 3 years and paid 3000 euros for LPG installation, but it is not more expensive than buying the same vehicle in Hdi diesel, so he preferred greener choice than the diesel ..... if in addition we question the theory of global warming by CO2, the reasoning holds even more the road.

The ecological bonus-malus system as it is currently has already been dezinced by scientists and doctors because it indirectly (and certainly voluntarily) favors diesel vehicles: issue of the "health magazine" on FR5 this week.


Yes, I was on a whole different strategy. There are very undervalued opportunities because "gasoline" (compared to HDI). And I think it's a "good plan" to buy them several thousand euros cheaper than equivalent HDIs and put them on GPL.

But this is only "at least worse". I'm not particularly into the top question of vehicles ...
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by Did67 » 25/06/08, 16:22

Woodcutter wrote:To return to CO2, it must be noted that the effect is real, and therefore this type of incentive can serve as an example and be generalizable, improving it with constraints on pollutants if necessary.




Yes, there is an effect.

Yes, this can be an example, and before yelling against any new tax, we could think about Carbon taxes, with constant taxation (that is to say we offload elsewhere - for example the VAT on bread, pasta , wholegrain rice, fruits and vegetables - good for health, even if they are not organic! But not TIPP, I have explained this elsewhere) ...

Now I also think that fuel prices are making people buy smaller vehicles - and the bonus is just a boon for them! That said: so much the better. Simply Borloo can be awesome a little too quickly! But to be Prime Minister, he has to advertise ...

Finally, this shows that it is by the price that we must "hit". I hope that there will not be a significant fall in oil prices, otherwise bad habits will resume and we will find ourselves in the abyss again soon ... The floating TIPP, in its principle, was still a good idea to "smooth out" variations and allow people to adapt. Except that it was used to keep average prices too low ...
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by Christophe » 17/10/08, 12:42

This subject was the subject of a publication in a book whose passage is to be read here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/actualite- ... t6365.html

Edit 2010: the continuation of the bonus bonus https://www.econologie.com/forums/bonus-malu ... t9093.html
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Re: Bonus Malus for cars: who explains the problem to me?




by Remundo » 09/08/23, 09:48

Small pearl reported by motor Nature

for the text in italics, you don't have to read everything... : Mrgreen:
To this end, the government has prepared the following order (.pdf; 21 pages), which can be described without hesitation as a technocratic abomination. To be entitled to the bonus, a builder will have to follow a procedure, fill out forms, and it will be necessary to hang on. Here are the few data that will need to be specified.

The carbon footprint of the production of the steel consumed for the manufacture of the version in question, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The carbon footprint of the production of the aluminum consumed for the manufacture of the version in question, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The production carbon footprint of the materials, other than steel and aluminium, used to manufacture the version in question, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The carbon footprint linked to the production of the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The carbon footprint linked to the intermediate transformations and the assembly of the version in question, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The carbon footprint linked to the transport of the version in question from its assembly site to its distribution site in France, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2).
The carbon footprint of the production of steel consumed for the manufacture of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the assembly site of the version in question. Its determination takes into account a loss rate ???? in steel throughout all of the processing and assembly stages.
The carbon emission factor for steel production per unit of steel mass consumed, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilogram of steel (kg-eq CO2/kg), for the assembly site of the version in question.
The total mass of steel used in the composition of all the parts making up the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms (kg).
The carbon footprint of the production of aluminum consumed for the manufacture of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the assembly site of the version considered. Its determination takes into account a loss rate ???? in aluminum throughout all processing and assembly stages.
The carbon emission factor for the production of aluminum per unit of aluminum mass consumed, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilogram of aluminum (kg-eq CO2/kg), for the assembly site of the version in question.
The total mass of aluminum used in the composition of all the parts making up the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms (kg).
The carbon footprint of the production of materials, other than steel and aluminium, used to manufacture the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the assembly site of the version considered.
The carbon emission factor of the production of materials, other than steel and aluminum, per unit mass of such materials, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilogram of such materials (kg-eq CO2/kg), for the site of assembly of the considered version.
The total mass of materials, other than steel and aluminium, used in the composition of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms (kg).
The carbon footprint linked to the production of the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the battery production site in question.
The carbon emission factor linked to the production of the battery per unit of battery capacity, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilowatt-hour of battery capacity (kg-eq CO2/kWh), for the battery production site considered.
The carbon footprint linked to the intermediate transformations and to the assembly of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the assembly site of the version in question.
The carbon emission factor linked to the intermediate transformations and the assembly of a vehicle excluding the battery per unit mass, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilogram of mass excluding the driver excluding the battery (kg-eq CO2/kg), for the assembly site of the considered version.
The carbon footprint linked to the transport of the reference vehicle from the assembly site of the version in question to its distribution site in France, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent (kg-eq CO2), for the site of assembly of the considered version.
The carbon emission factor linked to the transport of a vehicle by sea, per unit of mass transported and per kilometer travelled, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per tonne of mass excluding the driver per kilometer (kg-eq CO2/t.km) .
The average distance travelled, by sea, for the delivery of a vehicle of the version in question, from the assembly site of the version in question to its distribution site in France, expressed in kilometers (km).
The carbon emission factor linked to the transport of a vehicle according to the non-maritime mode used and the geographical area crossed, per unit of mass transported and per kilometer travelled, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per tonne of mass excluding the driver per kilometer (kg -eq CO2/t.km).
The average distance travelled, according to each mode of transport excluding sea and for each geographical area, for the transport of a vehicle of the version in question, from the assembly site of the version in question to its distribution site in France , expressed in kilometers (km).
The production volume of the considered version of the assembly site i divided by the production volume of said version totaled over all the assembly sites.
Weighting of the components involved in determining the carbon footprint of the version considered in the case of a multiplicity of battery production sites:
The production volume of batteries entering into the constitution of the considered battery of the production site i divided by the production volume of said batteries totaled over all the production sites.
The estimated production volume of the said version on the site, over the next twelve months.
The estimated production volume of batteries used in the composition of said battery on the site, over the next twelve months.
The exact address of each car and battery production site (including their postal code or an equivalent if there is one, the municipality and the country).
The manufacturer's file, as defined in article 24 of the aforementioned regulation (EU) 2018/858.
- the acceptance files and acceptance sheets relating to the regulatory acts referred to in points 59/G13 (recyclability) and 69/A19 (electrical safety during use) of Annex II of Regulation (EU) 2018/858 referred to above ;
- trunk volume
The total mass of steel, pure and alloy, of the reference vehicle, excluding battery, in kilograms (kg); - The total mass of aluminium, pure and alloyed, of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, in kilograms (kg);
- A detailed mass balance, by material (at least by the following segmentation: steel, aluminum, copper, plastics, glass, rubber, other materials), of each of the parts used in the composition of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery, in kilograms (kg).
- the total mass of the battery, in kilograms (kg).
- the masses of steel and aluminum of the battery, in kilograms (kg).
- the total capacity of the battery, in kilowatt-hours (kWh).
- the chemistry of the battery elements (for example: NMC 632-graphite).
- the most representative logistics plan for the transport of the reference vehicle from its assembly site to its distribution site in France, detailing:
- the distance covered, in this diagram, by the maritime mode.
- the distances covered, in this diagram, within each of the geographical areas defined in Appendix I of this order, by each non-maritime mode used.
The IMDS (International Material Data System) sheet of all the parts or an equivalent;
The list of steel production and semi-finished product transformation sites, with: - Address and name of legal entities.
- Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (at least a sworn statement from the supplier(s) with an indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
For each steel production site, the carbon emission factor of steel production per unit mass of steel leaving the factory, justified by a cradle-to-gate attributional type life cycle analysis, ie from the extraction of the ores until they leave the steel production plant (before dispatch to the steel processing plants), in accordance with the requirements defined in 6° of this article.
The list of industrial sites involved in the intermediate transformation of this part (including sites of subcontractors not belonging to the manufacturer's legal scope), with:
- Address and name of legal entities.
- Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (minimum commitment on the honor of the supplier(s) with the indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
The detailed calculation file used to establish the derogatory value of the carbon emission factor for steel production per unit of steel mass consumed
For a set of parts not included in the composition of the battery, the cumulative masses of aluminum of which represent at least 90% of the total mass of aluminum of the reference vehicle, excluding the battery: - the IMDS sheet (International Material Data System) of all parts or an equivalent;
- the list of aluminum production and semi-finished product transformation sites, with
- Address and name of legal entities
- Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (at least a sworn statement from the supplier(s) with an indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
For each aluminum production site, the carbon emission factor of aluminum production per unit of aluminum mass leaving the factory, justified by a cradle-to-gate attributional type life cycle analysis, ie from the extraction of the ores until they leave the aluminum production plant (before dispatch to the aluminum processing plants), in accordance with the requirements defined in 6° of this article.
The list of industrial sites involved in the intermediate transformation of this part (including sites of subcontractors not belonging to the manufacturer's legal scope), with:
- Address and name of legal entities.
- Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (minimum commitment on the honor of the supplier(s) with the indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
- the detailed calculation file making it possible to establish the derogatory value of the carbon emission factor for the production of aluminum per unit of aluminum mass consumed.
For a set of parts not included in the composition of the battery whose cumulative masses of materials other than steel and aluminum represent at least 90% of the total mass, excluding steel, aluminum and battery of the reference vehicle:
- the IMDS (International Material Data System) sheet of all the parts or an equivalent
- the list of production sites for each of these parts, with:
- Address and name of legal entities
- Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (at least a sworn statement from the supplier(s) with an indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
- for each production site of these parts, the carbon emission factor linked to their production, justified by an attributional cradle-to-gate type life cycle analysis, from the extraction of raw materials to the output of the production site (before sending to the assembly site), in accordance with the requirements defined in 6° of this article.
- the detailed calculation file used to establish the derogatory value of the carbon emission factor for the production of materials, other than steel and aluminium, per unit mass of such materials, specifying in particular the material decomposition and the factors of issue associates applied.
For each battery production site:
- Address and name of legal entities
- Cradle-to-gate attributional life cycle analysis, ie from the extraction of the minerals to the exit from the battery production site, in accordance with the requirements defined in 6° of this article
For a set of parts whose cumulative masses represent at least 90% of the mass excluding the battery of the reference vehicle:
- the list of industrial sites involved in the intermediate transformations of the part, with for each of them:
- Address and name of legal entities; - Supporting documents to authenticate the traceability (at least a sworn statement from the supplier(s) with an indication of the volumes sold and the delivery dates).
- Energy balance per site in relation to the room (ie number of kWh consumed by type of energy: electricity, natural gas heat and heat from other sources, and per unit produced).
- Carbon emission factor for the energy used to transform the part, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilowatt-hour of energy (kg-eq CO2/kWh), for each type of energy (electricity, gas heat and heat from other sources) by specifying the source or method of calculation of each emission factor, and by complying, for the carbon emission factor associated with electricity, with the requirements defined in the last paragraph of 6° of this article.
- the list of industrial sites involved in the assembly of the version, with for each of them:
- Address ;
- Energy balance per site related to the vehicle (ie number of kWh consumed per type of energy: electricity, natural gas heat and heat from other sources, and per assembled unit, for the reference vehicle).
- Carbon emission factor for the energy used to assemble the reference vehicle, expressed in kilograms CO2 equivalent per kilowatt-hour of energy (kg-eq CO2/kWh for each type of energy: electricity, gas heat and heat from other sources) by specifying the source or method of calculation of each emission factor, and by complying, for the carbon emission factor associated with electricity, with the requirements defined in the last paragraph of 6° of this article.
- The detailed calculation file used to establish the carbon emission factor linked to the intermediate transformations and the assembly of the reference vehicle, specifying in particular the quantities of energy (electricity, natural gas heat, and heat from other sources) and the associated carbon emission factors applied.
- The total mass of plastic materials used in the composition of the reference vehicle, expressed in kilograms (kg).
- the mass of pre-consumer recycled plastic materials used in the composition of the reference vehicle, expressed in kilograms (kg).
- the mass of post-consumer recycled plastic materials used in the composition of the reference vehicle, expressed in kilograms (kg).
- the types of plastic materials concerned (acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, aliphatic polyamide, polypropylene, polyurethane, polyvinyl chloride, etc.).
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