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jean.caissepas
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Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby jean.caissepas » 28/08/20, 10:19

There is almost more room to build new hydroelectric storage dams, because we have to preserve the flora and fauna.

On the other hand, there is room under the sea to store compressed air:

https://www.segulatechnologies.com/fr/i ... et/remora/

The idea does not seem silly ... : Idea:
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Christophe
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby Christophe » 28/08/20, 14:32

Yeah for the idea because compressed air is not a good energy carrier ... I therefore have great doubts about the storage efficiency at 70% ... in theory perhaps ... in practice I ask to see. ..

See at what price the kWh is stored ... "all inclusive" (investment, depreciation, maintenance ...)

Some batteries are now coming out at less than $ 100 / kWh ex-factory price ... it's going to be hard to compete ...

Do they have a demo model?

I think maritime WWTPs are a better idea: energies-renewable / storage-in-sea-by-step-pumped-sea-of-the-electricity-renewable-t14791.html
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby ENERC » 28/08/20, 17:57

jean.caissepas wrote:There is almost more room to build new hydroelectric storage dams, because we have to preserve the flora and fauna.

On the other hand, there is room under the sea to store compressed air:

https://www.segulatechnologies.com/fr/i ... et/remora/

The idea does not seem silly ... : Idea:

A few years ago, I carried out a simulation of the battery capacity needed to stabilize the French network. Attached is the simulation on the 2014 RTE data at 30-minute intervals.
The simulation takes the RTE data and sets nuclear and thermal to zero.
We see that with 200 GWh of batteries, we are already very stable. 200 GWh is about 3 kWh per capita, which is very little. You don't need a huge storage capacity.

On this excel sheet we can play on the installed wind and solar capacity (compared to the 2014 base).
The interesting thing is on column Q which gives the power that we must import from our neighbors.
Column S gives the lost power.
Keep this data, because I can no longer find it on the RTE site.
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RTE_100_ENRs.xlsx
(8.11 million) Downloaded times 5
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby Christophe » 28/08/20, 18:08

Waaw enerc that's cool!

I haven't even looked at the .xls but I imagine ... that by making 8 MB it must be tough !!! 8) 8) 8)
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby sicetaitsimple » 28/08/20, 18:51

ENERC wrote:A few years ago, I carried out a simulation of the battery capacity needed to stabilize the French network. Attached is the simulation on the 2014 RTE data at 30-minute intervals.
The simulation takes the RTE data and sets nuclear and thermal to zero.
We see that with 200 GWh of batteries, we are already very stable. 200 GWh is about 3 kWh per capita, which is very little. You don't need a huge storage capacity.


I am not sure I understood everything from your table.
What are the values ​​of the installed powers for each sector (for example in the case of simulation compared to 2014)?
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby ENERC » 28/08/20, 19:38

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ENERC wrote:A few years ago, I carried out a simulation of the battery capacity needed to stabilize the French network. Attached is the simulation on the 2014 RTE data at 30-minute intervals.
The simulation takes the RTE data and sets nuclear and thermal to zero.
We see that with 200 GWh of batteries, we are already very stable. 200 GWh is about 3 kWh per capita, which is very little. You don't need a huge storage capacity.


I am not sure I understood everything from your table.
What are the values ​​of the installed powers for each sector (for example in the case of simulation compared to 2014)?

For the columns from F to J, we take the RTE data from the 2012, 2013 or 2014 tabs and we multiply by the multiplying coefficient in B5 or B6. Example:
On January 1, 2014 between midnight and 0:0 a.m., the average wind power was 30 MW (column J3470 of the 2 tab).
Instead of having the X GW of wind power connected in 2014, I take 16 times more (coefficient B6).
If in 2014 we had had 16 times more wind power in the same places, the power would have been 55 MW.

The bias is especially for solar which in 2012-2014 was mainly in the south (and therefore that implies unmodeled South -> North costal cables).

Columns L is the average power over 30 minutes consumed on the French network.

In column N I start with a B10 GWh battery charged to 100. If I do not have enough current, I discharge the battery with the maximum power of the battery given in F10.
If I do not have enough juice (F10 does not cover the lack of power, or empty battery) I request a supplement noted in columns Q and U (Q for import, and U for gas / biogas turbine).

If I have too much output, I charge the battery to the maximum power F10.

Column R is what I can theoretically either export or use for gaz2power.
Column S is what I cannot value (I put 20 GW in the simulation in box B12). This corresponds in practice to a cap on renewable production

Column U corresponds to the start-up of a gas / biogas plant to support the network. It is at 20 GW (box B14), with a total product of 30 TWh in box U13.

It's old - I hope I have everything good :?
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ENERC
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby ENERC » 28/08/20, 19:55

In fact, what the simulation shows is that there is no point in having electrical storage in large quantities.
Even if we put a larger storage capacity, we cannot supply the required power. This happens in prolonged periods without wind or sun.
You need chemical storage to start a power plant in backup (or nuclear in backup - which we have for quite a few years)

A little electrical storage is therefore needed and a fair amount of chemical storage (at least up to 30 TWh on the 2014 data). The 2013 and 2012 data are in the respective tabs. You must change box B13 to change the year.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby sicetaitsimple » 28/08/20, 20:03

OK, I looked a bit more and think I got it overall.

But that does not answer the question of the installed power in PV and wind power in your "2014" example. It's 24 times more and 16 times more, but how much is that in MW?
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby phil59 » 28/08/20, 20:46

I haven't looked at anything, but I think it will only make sense with V2G.

If 3 kWh is enough, with 15 EVs, that's 000 kWh per car. Today, well, we will say 000/12 of a battery, tomorrow, probably with 1 kWh batteries, it will only be about 3% of capacity.

Developed the panels, no offense, to many people, with even a small mini storage, like 1 or 2 kWh, it should be not bad ...
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Underwater storage of electricity with 70% efficiency

Unread Messageby sicetaitsimple » 28/08/20, 21:51

sicetaitsimple wrote:OK, I looked a bit more and think I got it overall.

But that does not answer the question of the installed power in PV and wind power in your "2014" example. It's 24 times more and 16 times more, but how much is that in MW?


I searched a bit.

Wind power installed at the end of 2014: 9143MW
Solar installed power at the end of 2014: 5611MW

https://www.actu-environnement.com/ae/n ... 23984.php4

So it is certain that with nearly 150.000 MW of eoilen (9143 * 16) and nearly 130.000MW of solar (5611 * 24), in annual volume it would not be far from counting if we add the hydraulic, a bit of biomass and a small fossil supplement.

But it is not on an annual volume that an electrical system operates.

This is not a criticism, I think that doing this kind of calculation personally as you did allows you to realize the orders of magnitude.

But then there is real life ... 150.000MW of wind power and 130.000 MW of solar in France?

There are also other "physical" biases in your calculations, but in fact it is incidental.
Again this is not a criticism, but I think the result you get in terms of storage capacity is wrong because the scenario is unrealistic.
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