The car of the future

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
Elec
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by Elec » 03/01/09, 22:43

RIAZ wrote:
Elec wrote:Dirk,
I based my calculation on an EV that consumes 20kWh / 100km (equivalent to the energy content of 2 liters of petrol).

You are really angry with the numbers Elec.
20 kWh / 100 km does not correspond to 2 liters of petrol but to SIX.
Not in the least, the calorific value of a liter of petrol = 10kWh (a little less than 10 in reality).
20kWh corresponds well to 2 liters of petrol equivalent.

Second data in my calculation:
the efficiency of the wheel drive of an electric vehicle (84%) is 4 times that of a thermal vehicle (20% in normal use).

Third data:
The French car fleet (excluding trucks that consume 10 Mtoe) consumes 25 million tonnes of oil equivalent, i.e. 290 TWh

Fourth data:
1 square meter PV = annual production of 100 kWh electric, 1km2 = 100 GWh

conclusions:
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blo ... omy/77.jpg
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cunseulair
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by cunseulair » 03/01/09, 23:59

It's hard to have an all-or-nothing discussion, what's the topic of this thread? to "design" the car of the future? in absolute terms we should talk about "means to ensure the mobility of people" but hey let's talk about cars and therefore stay in the fairly near future, let's say 20/30 years at the dawn of the end of cheap fossil fuels and accessible.
Obviously, the renewal of the vehicle fleet and the technology used will not happen overnight and will require several "generations" of cars. Conversely, in this term, the use of fossil or agro fuels should be more reserved for uses that are more strategic and difficult to convert to other things (agriculture, aviation, goods, chemicals, etc.) without these sectors being exempted. to evolve.

Other evidence of the moment:
-Electric traction is more efficient, cleaner, cheaper, recent and therefore expected to progress rapidly.
-electric energy is "sealed" by its storage but benefits from a magnificent diffuse production potential
-the fuel engine is at its peak, real progress is rare despite a colossal gray matter investment, it remains heavy dirty noisy and not very flexible
-fossil fuels (including agro-) are still inexpensive, readily available and of incomparable energy density.

I think the car of the future will take shape in small touches,
-It must integrate the electrical kinematics first, I have a weakness for the wheel motor,
- do not seek too large or exclusive autonomy on battery,
-being completely hybrid, that is to say with an auxiliary generator, a field that has been little explored where great progress in consumption can be expected
-evolve in its shape, its weight and more in satisfying the need of the user than his ego
- integrate technological advances to increase its electric autonomy, rather by a PAC type generator where it seems to me that there is more room for progress than in storage technology
-to end up as an automated mobility tool for people, disconnected from individual property, but here we fall back into science fiction

But in fact the real progress is not there if we do not know how to change global governance and if we do not accept to speak of sharing and redistribution of the wealth that we have, and that we continue to plunder under the tinsel of the development, science and progress ... hop, hop, off the road !!

:?
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Elec
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by Elec » 04/01/09, 00:06

cunseulair wrote:Obviously, the renewal of the vehicle fleet and the technology used will not happen overnight and will require several "generations" of cars.
Clearly, this can happen very quickly if the obstacles that prevented VE from developing in the past are removed. And there are here and now very concrete solutions to overcome them, both technically and economically.

Other evidence of the moment:
1 -Electric traction is more efficient, cleaner, cheaper, recent and therefore expected to progress rapidly.
2 -electric energy is "sealed" by its storage but benefits from a magnificent diffuse production potential
3 - the fuel engine is at its peak, real progress is rare despite a colossal gray matter investment, it remains heavy dirty noisy and not very flexible
4 - fossil fuels (including agro-) are still inexpensive, readily available and of incomparable energy density.

1:OK

2: Autonomy is not a problem with an infrastructure for recharging and exchanging batteries.

3:OK

4: The electricity solution costs much less today, including battery, than petrol (and bio-agro-fuels): 6 cents / mile (electricity + battery) against 12 cents per mile with petrol at USA (and 24 cents for petrol in the EU ...).

-being completely hybrid, that is to say with an auxiliary generator, a field that has been little explored where great progress in consumption can be expected

With a charging and battery exchange infrastructure in place, hybrid solutions are useless and will always cost more than 100% electric solutions. The difference is the cost of the generator. The hybrid is this: "You want a woman and you get a fish, you want a fish and you get a woman"

Conclusion: let's install this infrastructure and don't waste time with the half-solutions.

Cost of investing in infrastructure for an oil-dependent country = bill equivalent to 2 months of importing oil.

In Israel, that means 500 charging stations.
Each time your car is parked (23 hours a day), it charges.
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Elec
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by Elec » 04/01/09, 00:36

dirk pitt wrote:yes it is possible provided you do not take unfavorable assumptions: it is obvious that an urban electric EV whose objective would be to be recharged in solar would not weigh 1500 kg if not, of course, that does not.
look rather HERE
the dagne vehicle can travel the 40miles daily (64kms) of an American with 4m2 of solar panels : Cheesy: in the Californian sun, I concede.
but we have here a very good example of a vehicle designed to be energy efficient while remaining pleasant in speed and acceleration.
Image


Dirk,
I come back to your post: it is frankly superb the Dagne!
All that's left is to cover the bodywork with a PV layer (thin film) and we have a real gem!
Just what stuff:
- a pity that the extension of autonomy (relay with electric petrol generator when the battery is almost empty) is not carried out with a Stirling engine (Stirling engine which can run on any fuel and which can be left at home on short trips, i.e. 90% of the time).
- too bad they don't use a wheel motor ... Their electric motor seems heavy and it takes up space for nothing.

Image

Image
Last edited by Elec the 04 / 01 / 09, 00: 59, 1 edited once.
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RIAZ
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by RIAZ » 04/01/09, 00:58

Elec wrote:Not in the least, the calorific value of a liter of petrol = 10kWh (a little less than 10 in reality).
20kWh corresponds well to 2 liters of petrol equivalent.


In real life, when you transform gasoline into mechanical energy, 2/3 of the energy it contains goes up in smoke.
This is why a consumption of 20 kWh must be assimilated to 6 liters of petrol in order not to make meaningless comparisons.
And this also corresponds to the primary energy that must be mobilized to produce this electricity, in real life once again.

And the car that makes 20 Kwh / 100 is the size of a car that makes 6 L / 100 ....
No miracle .... even in Israel.
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In terms of the future, it is not to foresee it, but to enable it (Antoine de Saint Exupery)

Elec
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by Elec » 04/01/09, 01:00

Riaz, I already answered you:

- The calorific value of a liter of gasoline = 10kWh (a little less than 10 in reality). 20kWh corresponds well to 2 liters of petrol equivalent.

- Second data in my calculation:
the efficiency of the wheel drive of an electric vehicle (84%) is 4 times that of a thermal vehicle (20% in normal use).


A 20% efficiency for the internal combustion engine means a loss of 4/5.

(by the way, the 30% efficiency you use for the internal combustion engine is in the lab, not in the real life ;))

I don't understand your allusion to Israel.
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RIAZ
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by RIAZ » 04/01/09, 01:34

This DAGNE looks very nice and obviously they left the blank page.

The TILTING VEHICLE formula is interesting if narrowness is sought, but that necessarily complicates (more expensive, heavier).

The mini handle to control everything, I dream, but do not delude yourself, we are not in the rustic (expensive).

Three wheels (like the MATHIS) of course, but why complicate life with 2 motors, one with differential and all everything (expensive and heavy), all for a power of 15 Kw ....

We would like to know more about the figures that count and would allow us to validate the prospectus aspect of the site ...

It is indicated a range of 120 miles in pure electric and 600 with the hybrid. We can conclude that the 4 gallons of gasoline can make 480 miles. All accounts made that makes us 1,9 L / 100 which is not bad at all.
But by simplifying the beast they will arrive at what APTERA will do (just as hypothetically as it does).

The right strategy with this type of vehicle is probably to load the battery just sufficient for the daily journey in order to lighten up as much as possible.
If these formulas develop, the generator set on board optimized for this use will become a standard and banal component sold for the price of three figs.
A small car, a small battery (2 to say that we are driving really solar), a small group, and our good life.
Small is beautifull, of course ...
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In terms of the future, it is not to foresee it, but to enable it (Antoine de Saint Exupery)
Elec
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by Elec » 04/01/09, 02:27

"In the near future we will produce a larger family-sized vehicle, as well as other vehicles to suit the transportation needs of our customers."
http://www.revolutionmotors.biz/revolution/faq.html

Everyone can choose the model of their choice:
Bolloré / Pininfarina B ° (photo), Renault Rogue, BYD e6, Heuliez Will, Daimler Smart, Aptera, C-Zen, eMIEV, Dagne, etc ...

Image
http://www.evworld.com

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Michel Kieffer
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by Michel Kieffer » 04/01/09, 09:46

As we say Riaz . " In the meantime, we quickly need a petrol car at 2 and then 1 liter per 100 km », And he adds, it's easy, let's start this process, and right after we attack the rest…

Here are some remarks which abound in this direction:

How beautiful the MATHIS VEL 333 is… Here is one of the fathers of our “cars of the future”.

Seeing this, we find that "to innovate, you have to understand the past". Deviating from this rule exposes us either to reinventing (without knowing it) something that already existed, or to reproducing the errors of the past, or to invent new errors…

Here is perhaps the cause of the “hyper technological” delusions of our car manufacturers, very expensive hyper technology and bringing little compared to the solutions of the past (cf. fundamentals lightness and aerodynamics). But, as the saying goes: " behind every marketer is a liar * (Business must go well, they say…).

All things considered compared to the automotive sector, this is what we are ** doing in the air: reinventing the past with a touch of modernity. Clearly, these are the " old Who taught us everything. Here are the characteristics of our two-seater plane, no “modern” aircraft achieves this performance:
- 4,5 liters per hundred to 200 km / h, 3 liters to the hundred at 150 (we think later to further reduce these consumption very significantly)
- Installed power: 40hp, power used in cruising: 22 hp at 200 km / h
- Length 5,8 m, wingspan 8,4 m…
- Empty weight 235 kg all inclusive (engine, airframe, wings, etc.)
- Takeoff weight 448 kg (crew 2 people + fuel)

Let’s put this plane on the road, the consumption goes down to 0,8 l per cent at constant speed at 90 km / h… (we must however make the running gear, and, for a practical question, remove the wings…)

Michel Kieffer


* " behind each marketer, there is a racketeer », It works too!
** "us": this is a team from the association "interaction"
PS: details of the aero project and team members on the site http://www.cocyane.com
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minguinhirigue
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by minguinhirigue » 04/01/09, 15:37

For airplanes, here is a good piece of relaxation: http://www.rolandcernat.com/portfolio_r ... r_pg1.html

Nice piece of solar hybrid aircraft, but I think it is far from the performance you expect to achieve (interaction), and I am not sure that we currently have the technologies necessary to achieve all the details offered: polycarbonate shell subjected to significant mechanical stress, flexible nanosolar type solar film with sufficient resistance to bad weather for remaining unprotected by a glass plate ... I'm not telling you the pain for those who want to make a prototype.

Good luck to dreamers to whom nothing is impossible ...
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