The car of the future

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
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gildas
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View gildas » 25/05/10, 15:39

Hello,
Michel Kieffer wrote:Besides, let’s make no mistake about the fight: hybridizing a very light vehicle pays much more than hybridizing a very heavy 1360 kg Prius!


yes, but if it will be driven by a 40hp diesel in gillier-pantone instead of its petrol engine and with its electric motor, the diesel engine would often run at its maximum, very favorable with
water doping (with more acoustic insulation!)
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oiseautempete
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View oiseautempete » 25/05/10, 17:16

Gildas wrote:Hello,
Michel Kieffer wrote:[i] Besides, let's make no mistake about the fight: hybridizing a very light vehicle pays much more than hybridizing a very heavy 1360 kg Prius!


yes, but if it will be driven by a 40hp diesel in gillier-pantone instead of its petrol engine and with its electric motor, the diesel engine would often run at its maximum, very favorable with
water doping (with more acoustic insulation!)


To drive at 90km / h a Prius or other aerodynamic car of comparable mass requires less than 20hp in thermal on the flat ...
Pantone ... : Lol: a hybrid is already heavy enough and complicated (illusory to make a light hybrid!) not to add more, especially for an improbable gain (the trawler diesel which were gillier-pantonized were very disappointing ...)
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gildas
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View gildas » 25/05/10, 19:15

oiseautempete wrote:
To drive at 90km / h a Prius or other aerodynamic car of comparable mass requires less than 20hp in thermal on the flat ...


yes, but we could configure it to recharge its batteries at this speed, we should arrive at more than 20 hp.

I don't know why it's not working on trawlers,
but the c 15 of Vitry arrives to make savings of more than 30%, the 306 of Cahors 25%. I worked as an employee of a commune. I used a similar vehicle, they were often few loaded and for small trips, 25 to 30% savings is huge because the engine has only a load rate of
30% -35% at 90 km / h or 20-25 hp (unfavorable air penetration but only 1,1 tonnes or 250 kg less than the prius)

with a charge rate of 50% ca becomes interesting at 90 km / h,
at 130 km / h a prius with a 40 hp diesel with its batteries
to load it should be 100%.
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oiseautempete
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View oiseautempete » 25/05/10, 20:01

Gildas wrote:yes, but we could configure it to recharge its batteries at this speed, we should arrive at more than 20 hp.

I don't know why it's not working on trawlers,
but the c 15 of Vitry arrives to make savings of more than 30%, the 306 of Cahors 25%. I worked as an employee of a commune. I used a similar vehicle, they were often few loaded and for small trips, 25 to 30% savings is huge because the engine has only a load rate of
30% -35% at 90 km / h or 20 hp (unfavorable air penetration but only 1,1 tonnes or 250 kg less than the prius)

with a charge rate of 50% ca becomes interesting at 90 km / h,
at 130 km / h a prius with a 40 hp diesel with its batteries
to load it should be 100%.


The Prius, in recharge mode, obviously consumes more than a pure thermal (by the way, it does not consume ~ the same as a good gasoline thermal car), its Athkinson engine can not do much: l The energy it provides also has a price (but it recharges a lot in "engine brake" mode ...
On trawlers, it is rare for the engines to run at only 30% load: CVs are needed both when pulling nets and when traveling at maximum speed (the first to arrive gets the best prices). from a real comparative test carried out under exactly identical conditions, there are too many uncertainties: from one driver to another already there can be 30% difference depending on the driving style, so ... my wife at the beginning displayed monstrous consumption in town (petrol car), since I taught her a few things she does as well as me (with the same car) ... and going ~ as fast : Lol:
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gildas
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View gildas » 30/05/10, 23:27

oiseautempete wrote: (the trawler diesel which were gillier-pantonized were very disappointing ...)


Quote A on water doping:

"It is on industrial type diesel engines that doping with water
most successful.
In 2009, a Quebec tourist boat (...) was fitted with a water injection. It is equipped with 3 diesel engines (...) of 430 hp unit. "
Last edited by gildas the 02 / 06 / 10, 00: 12, 1 edited once.
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oiseautempete
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View oiseautempete » 31/05/10, 08:34

Gildas wrote:
oiseautempete wrote: (the trawler diesel which were gillier-pantonized were very disappointing ...)


Autobio quote on water doping:

"It is on industrial type diesel engines that doping with water
most successful.
In 2009, a Quebec tourist boat (...) was fitted with a water injection. It is equipped with 3 diesel engines (...) of 430 hp unit. "


I was talking to you about the French trawlers who have been pantonized, not from Quebecers, and moreover a tourist boat is not a WORKING boat like a trawler which fully uses the power of its engines ... On trawlers, the gain actual found was (according to what I read) of 3%, which is really not significant nor profitable given the cost of the modification ...
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Christophe
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View Christophe » 31/05/10, 14:35

About the Quebec boat you will find a lot of info here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/1er-gros-b ... t9059.html

Bird, where did you read this? Can you remind us of the source?

Because to my knowledge it is the auxiliary (generator) group which had been doped ... and we know pkoi the doping does not work well on the generators (insufficient load even if generating "full", few variations of load / speed ...).

Indeed, on a (commercial) group, the generator is always undersized in relation to the engine power in order to avoid callings ...

I just found a document on the interests of vehicle electronics
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Michel Kieffer
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View Michel Kieffer » 04/06/10, 08:37

Communication support…

Here is a synthetic communication medium intended for listeners who are not aware of the automotive problem. This is the document "Eco-design and transport »Document http://www.hkw-aero.fr/pdf/ecodesign.pdf .

This document emphasizes that the economy resulting from the replacement of a steel part by an aluminum part (there are of course other possibilities of lightening) leads to a fuel saving of 63 to 95% *, and over the entire life of the vehicle, including gray energy.

It is useful to specify that the energy consumption of our cars on the mixed city road cycle (European cycle ECE15-OA) originates from two causes (and no more): mass and aerodynamics. Mass and aerodynamics respectively account for 70% and 30% of the consumption of our cars. See the course material "energy useful for moving a car" http://www.hkw-aero.fr/pdf/energie_utile_voiture.pdf .

To sum up, lighten and profile our vehicles is the first order action to reduce the consumption of our vehicles. It remains to understand the reasons for this major oversight!

Michel

* This update is the result of the recent calculation of the "Spiral coefficient", see the course material http://www.hkw-aero.fr/pdf/coefficient_spirale.pdf ; the calculation of this saving is presented in the course material "Eco-design, transport and materials" http://www.hkw-aero.fr/pdf/eco-conception.pdf .
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oiseautempete
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View oiseautempete » 04/06/10, 09:12

Michel Kieffer wrote:This document emphasizes that the economy resulting from the replacement of a steel part by an aluminum part (there are of course other possibilities of lightening) leads to a fuel saving of 63 to 95% *, and over the entire life of the vehicle, including gray energy.

It is useful to specify that the energy consumption of our cars on the mixed city road cycle (European cycle ECE15-OA) originates from two causes (and no more): mass and aerodynamics. Mass and aerodynamics respectively account for 70% and 30% of the consumption of our cars. See the course material "energy useful for moving a car" http://www.hkw-aero.fr/pdf/energie_utile_voiture.pdf .

To sum up, lighten and profile our vehicles is the first order action to reduce the consumption of our vehicles. It remains to understand the reasons for this major oversight!

Michel



No, the use of aluminum does NOT result in such fuel economy because at equal strength, the weight saving is by far not that important (~ 30% in reality), as the use proves. massive aluminum on the Audi A8 which makes it lose "only" 200kg (for the record, the Aston Martins have always been made in aluminum (bodywork on a steel frame). Note that the aluminum does not straighten out , any deformation leads to the replacement of the deformed part = insurance costs explode because repair costs are exorbitant ...
NEW aluminum requires much more energy than steel ... there is only recycling that aluminum requires a little less (t) of lower fusion ...
The mass of a vehicle has a significant influence only when accelerating or uphill, level maintains speed on the flat, for an identical aerodynamics, the difference is small (a single man has a lot of trouble launching a railway car from the stop, but has no difficulty in maintaining the movement once started).
Lightening is the most difficult solution because it involves the use of expensive materials, if one goes through a reduction in volume, a reduction in comfort, ease of use and utility function (loading).
To make a light car is very difficult (safety standards), it is enough to see the extremely long development of the Loremo, which makes more than 500kg, more than 2L / 100 in its most economical version (it is precisely on this model that Loremo stumbles for lack of modern engines available) and has only a very small useful volume which is impractical in everyday life, just a sore machine ... The first model to be marketed (if they have not sunk before ...) will probably be the one with 60hp petrol engine (probably a Smart engine).
Before the war and just after, when there were very few state controls, there was a whole bunch of light "cyclecars" with 3 or 4 wheels and even 2 (single-track), it consumed little but it did not roll. fast (most often ~ 60km / h) and passenger protection was roughly equivalent to that of a cyclist ...
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Michel Kieffer
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View Michel Kieffer » 04/06/10, 09:48

Oiseautempete

As you point out, aluminum is generally less resistant than steel ... but it is all a question of nuance of aluminum (Some alu have surprising resistances). As for the modulus of elasticity of the aluminum, it is approximately 3 x lower than the modulus of steel. That is to say that with identical geometry, an aluminum part deforms 3 x more than a steel part. And this is indeed annoying in quite a few cases.

It is for this reason that I did not take the aluminum / steel density ratio (= 0,35, which would be too good!) But this ratio plus a large margin of 50% (see page 19 of the document " eco conception " http://www.hkw-aero.fr/energies.html .

A number of other explanations can be found:
- in the “interpretation” and “conclusion” chapters of this document (pages 31 to 34);
- in the document "spiral coefficient".

Michel

PS safety (reminder): the problem is that the protective structure in the event of an accident is primarily used to absorb the energy linked to the considerable mass of our cars, and very secondary to the energy linked to the mass of the occupants (in proportion to the masses considered).
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