The car of the future: compressed air

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
Obamot
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View Obamot » 22/11/10, 20:20

[Original quote from Perplex withdrawn by Obamot]

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Last edited by Obamot the 23 / 11 / 10, 11: 24, 1 edited once.
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nonoLeRobot
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View nonoLeRobot » 22/11/10, 22:33

Peace and love guys! I want kisses everywhere: green: No, but at least no personal attacks.

Otherwise I read diagonally but it reminds me of the same discussions as 2 years ago and indeed there were econologists who did not believe it maybe not on the principle and again but especially on mdi. Who said already for 17 years that it worked but that there was still no functional prototype. After Tata is put in its balls there are some who said France is rotten them at least they believe in it.

Result 2 years later we are still at the same point. Even on their site it's a big joke, such a car will be a year after such another after such another after such after such after the airpod which will be for March (we believe ;-)) 2011.

In addition finally in bi energy for very small cars, they do not do better than smarts or other small model.


Finally we must remember that an air car is not clean, in France it is (in 2008) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production ... icit%C3%A9
:
418,6 TWh nuclear (76,2%),
63,4 TWh hydraulic (12,4%),
58,4 TWh conventional thermal (10,4%),
4,1 TWh wind and photovoltaic (1%).

And it will be much worse if there is suddenly a high demand. So I believe that even if everything is to be studied it is not worth fighting for whatever the answer it changes nothing or almost nothing for pollution.
Last edited by nonoLeRobot the 22 / 11 / 10, 23: 03, 1 edited once.
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 22/11/10, 22:41

+1 Image Absolutely Nono, :D We must not stop repeating that it is necessary to develop infrastructures like Désertec ... BEFORE the catamaran, but above all as a prerequisite for stimulating demand Image

Note that the "night" potential is still relatively interesting, but should not be dragged too much. There are quite a few that heat with electricity! (More and more?)
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I Citro
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View I Citro » 22/11/10, 23:51

Obamot wrote:+1 Image Absolutely Nono, :D We must not stop repeating that it is necessary to develop infrastructures like Désertec ... BEFORE the catamaran, but above all as a prerequisite for stimulating demand Image

Note that the "night" potential is still relatively interesting, but should not be dragged too much. There are quite a few that heat with electricity! (More and more?)
Desertec, it's pretty, it's pharaonic and it's once again the relocation of energy production ...
France has one of the biggest wind and tidal potential in Europe and it barely exploits it. This would represent for an infinitesimal cost, compared to nuclear a source of energy creating many long-term jobs.
Wind power is more energy efficient at night. Often the wind picks up when the sun goes down.

Last point; electricity can be stocked in many ways, pneumatic storage ... If it proves one day. :?
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 23/11/10, 00:11

Well yes it's pretty my friend :?

Fortunately it is relocated ... if it is a question of providing all the time zones according to the course of the sun ... It is better to ensure a coverage and a constant network load!

... and it looks good (little scoop by the way, it's the first time that dates are advanced):

Image

And you do well to say it, but wind power is not forgotten (I say that without advancing "politically")

... it's pretty, because the current and future wind farms are INTEGRATED in Désertec!

Image

It is NonoLeRobot who will be happy, it probably meets his expectations and mine (like many of you):

Image

It's good to be careful, but let's not be pessimistic :D
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bernardd
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View bernardd » 23/11/10, 00:18

nonoLeRobot wrote:Result 2 years later we are still at the same point.


You can see what you want, but there are still at least 55 patents, and some people know what the job of filing a patent is here. And the impossibility of speaking about it before.

Peugeot was asking for 101M € on a 527M € project to make a hybrid with technologies that they have known for decades and R&D teams of several hundred people, for more than 4 years of development.

https://www.econologie.com/forums/peugeot-ps ... t4863.html

And do you find that MDI takes too long to develop a technology most of which don't even understand the intricacies?

Before criticizing, we should try to do better.

nonoLeRobot wrote:And it will be much worse if there is suddenly a high demand. So I believe that even if everything is to be studied it is not worth fighting for whatever the answer it changes nothing or almost nothing for pollution.


What a surprise, it seems that nobody knows that the sun illuminates the day and not the night?

And still surprising, it turns out that we also use the car during the day, in general.

With 5 or 6 hours of charges for batteries, well obliged to charge at night. Especially given the price, it is not worth buying a second set of batteries to charge it during the day and exchange it in the evening when you get back from work.

With compressed air, all you need is a buffer tank at home, which is charged when the sun is shining. And he will not self-discharge.

And 2 minutes are enough to recharge the car in the evening on return. Or in the morning, as desired :-)

Do you still think that compressed air won't change anything?
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chatelot16
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View chatelot16 » 23/11/10, 00:37

when you say that the batteries are expensive and that it is not easy to have 2 to charge one the day in the sun while we ride with the other, I agree a little

when you say that with compressed air it's better it remains to be proven when you give a tank price

in the meantime I stay with the result of the steel tanks that I know: it is heavier and more expensive than a battery containing the same energy

is it possible to dismantle the tank to interchange?

in any case just plugging in 2 tanks and turning on the tap is fast but catastrophic: you end up with 2 tanks half full, and a big loss of energy ... the very cold source tank therefore keeping more air than half, and the very hot destination tank (therefore containing less than half) ... can be even by exceeding its maximum temperature : Evil:

for steel diving tanks when we do this kind of fast recharge we put the bottles in a water tank
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 23/11/10, 01:10

Yes we can interchange the tanks, it would take 3 min depending on the manufacturer. By cons to change a Li-on battery pack ... hello the weight! And the price will probably cost as much as the vehicle ... Not so simple!

Note that this is for any type of propulsion: there is no problem without solution. And compromises to accept depending on your mobility needs ...
For these temperature issues because of the transfer. From what I understand, if we increase the diameter of the inlet orifice the effect (loss) would decrease proportionally. So everything would depend on the diameter of the valve?

We are only at the beginning of the serious implementation of these technologies, we could very well imagine reservoirs of different types depending on the needs, with a pifometer, I go out some wacky tracks, but you never know ... :
- one with an opening with aluminum bayonet closure, close to the diameter of the tank, the charge could be instantaneous almost without effect, right? All that's left is to close the bayonet thanks to the very pressure of the tank once full ... So it would be impossible for the air to escape.
- if it is a pressure problem, we can have a bayonet at both ends of the tank, in this case there would be no "obstacle" during filling and the supply tube could close on both sides at the same time.
- we can also imagine a double body tank (two sections that would fit into each other) and that would lengthen while inflating to increase autonomy ... Same system ... that would be the strength of air pressure that would be used to seal ...

Of course some of you will see it impossible ... This is not the goal, it is just to say that there is still "some ground to clear". Let us remain optimists of reasonable interest!

In view of the data circulating on both sides (not only from MDI) it seems to be a credible and reasonable estimate to be able to travel 135 to 150 km with an AirPod type vehicle. (Manufacturer data 220 km or 110 km if you want to be rique-raque ...). If this type of vehicle reaches them, it is very, very good news, because I calculated that the full for 100 km, would be less than 6 € depreciation of the vhc included. And this although by increasing by 3x the consumption given by the manufacturer (on 150'000Km)! WITHOUT ANY ENVIRONMENTAL PREMIUM, it therefore seems unbeatable!

For the Toyota Yago it is 18 € / 100km (manufacturers data ... without any weighting! No bonus).

I continue (there is no shortage of ideas) : Mrgreen: it is enough to be a little imaginative and above all to think that we are relatively at the beginning with new technologies (ie new composites ... etc)

Recharging at home could also be considered as "troubleshooting", unless you change the cartridge.

Now as soon as suitable petrol stations develop. Changing a tank in 3min today could probably only take a few seconds in the future!

How long to wait to fill up the tank with diesel or petrol? And to charge a battery?
Last edited by Obamot the 23 / 11 / 10, 01: 35, 1 edited once.
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chatelot16
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View chatelot16 » 23/11/10, 01:28

Obamot wrote:As I understand it, if we increase the diameter of the inlet orifice the effect decreases. So it all depends on the diameter of the valve?


increasing the diameter of the pipe will not solve the problem, on the contrary

the solution to avoid this thermal effect and rather to limit the transfer speed by not opening the valve too much at the start when the pressure difference is large: anyway the energy loss of this kind of transfer is great

there was 20 years ago in angouleme a service station for vehicle with methane: they had a collection of tank with intermediate pressures and did not fill to 200bar at once, but successively opened the various taps to save energy, and do not empty the source at 200bar at the start when the source at 50 bar was enough

for a refill with good efficiency you need either a slow compressor which adapts effectively to the variable pressure during filling, or a collection of tanks with different pressures

it would be nice if the tanks were cheap ... but if we had a cheap high-resistance material to make these tanks we could also use it to fire vehicles 10 times lighter than today

alas the carbon fibers it does lighter but not less expensive thing ... it may change ... I wait ...
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 23/11/10, 01:40

Bein here it is champion, I like that! You just gave yourself a good chance. I also believe that it is better not to empty the tank completely as much as possible.
In addition we can also start filling while driving, BEFORE going to refuel (certainly with a hybrid by toasting a little fuel, mebon ... that should, according to the calculations cited above, remain incomparable in terms of Cost of consumption ...). As you say: we will see.
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