Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!

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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View NCSH » 17/09/23, 12:50

Remundo wrote:in the world of transport, we will only be able to walk on 2 legs: thermal and electric.

Depriving oneself of one or the other will at best lead to failure, at worst lead to a downfall...

the French powers? They had their hour of glory, but we've only had bums at the top of the state for a while...

The government's com' dives headlong into the endless debate of imbeciles which opposes thermal to electric, like the European Union which dogmatically announced the end of thermal engines in 2035.

This is a false question, the real question is:how to decarbonize energy at large, and preferably be independent from abroad? In this game, neo-fuels have their say.

First, a question of vocabulary, if the term used is "decarbonize", this leads to the policy currently advocated by most scientific institutions, NGOs, governments since 2015: a real witch hunt aimed at the extermination of all thermal machines of "thermo-industrial civilization", as quickly as possible for the most excited or fanatical...
:(

You should know that over the last ten years the Germans have coined a much less ambiguous neologism: "defossilize", which emphasizes the main problem: the fossil origin of carbon energies.
And which leaves the door open to non-fossil carbon energies, of biomass origin and purely synthetic.

It is these different variants of energy vectors, also including the direct use of electrical energy, hydrogen, that we must rely on.
As for proportions and geopolitics, the debate rages...
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View Remundo » 17/09/23, 14:54

defossilize, or :)

but my message was not ambiguous on this subject : Wink:
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View Janic » 18/09/23, 17:20

hydrogen, which we must trust.
Above all, you shouldn't dream of it any time soon!
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View NCSH » 09/07/24, 23:06

After 4 weeks of intense stress due to Franco-French politics, here is the prospect of a little relaxation.
Good news from Germany, you know, this country that the Rhine River separates from France.

First of all, we are awaiting confirmation that thermal engines will once again become a possible choice beyond 2035, which was one of the themes of the 2024 European electoral campaign, on which the main European political party is committed, the center-right EPP.
This is a German initiative, also supported by the center-right CDU, but also by the liberals of the FDP.
This will be (to be confirmed in the following months) on the menu of the official objectives of the mandate for the new 2024-2029 term, and therefore of the tortuous European institutional mechanics, which will certainly involve a parliamentary vote.

More exciting, information has leaked in the German media, the VW group now has a plan to invest €60 billion in the category of thermal engine vehicles. It is no longer a question of saving a small niche market from disaster: Porsche and other sports cars, motorcycles, but rather current production, accessible to everyone.
Until now only BMW with Toyota held this language against all odds.
I won't give you the link because it's in German, unless you want it.


This winter, on another thread, we discussed the carbon footprint and LCA of electric cars compared to cars with thermal engines. I mentioned the memory of graphs published 4 or 5 years ago on Twitter. Here is a brand new one, very beautiful.

A little deciphering is necessary: ​​this is a comparison of 4 C-segment models from the current VW range.
During construction, the expenditure of CO2 electric motors is twice as high.

B7 diesel corresponds to diesel available throughout Europe, at the pump, with 7% biofuel.
HVO 100 corresponds to a non-fossil carbon fuel (hydrogenated vegetable oils, 100%) equivalent to FT synthetic diesel, non-fossil, not available except for engine manufacturers.
Likewise, for E10 gasoline.
And MtG 100 corresponds to non-fossil synthetic gasoline, using the Methanol-to-Gasoline process, developed by Exxon in the 70s.

Electricity F and G corresponds to the 2 French and German electrical mixes, see top right.

These results can obviously be easily transposed to station wagons, sedans, SUVs in the most common B and D segments.

It's crystal clear!
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View izentrop » 10/07/24, 01:11

NCSH wrote:It's crystal clear!
Not with an image taken out of context.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View Remundo » 10/07/24, 01:20

and you take out your stupid text.

The image of NCSH is very telling and takes stock of the existing situation, namely EVs and VTs with French or German electric mix, and gasoline or Diesel fuel.

We see that the electric ones only take the advantage from around 100 km, which is poor considering the smug propaganda we are given on this subject.

Concerning "synthetic" or "renewable" fuels, the hypotheses are perhaps a little optimistic, but it is definitely an avenue to explore.

And to go even further, old vehicles should not be scrapped, but used until they die, preferably with synthetic fuels. The difference in consumption between cars from the 1990s and 2020 is not huge, I see with my Renault 19 petrol, I do 6-7L/100 km, and with the 1.4 TSI, 5-6L/100 km.

Replacing an old VT with a new VT is a big ecological scam because to amortize the gray manufacturing energy with 1L/100km saved, the new VT will have to travel at least 500 km...
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View izentrop » 10/07/24, 01:39

Remundo wrote:We see that the electric ones only take the advantage from around 100 km
We knew that, it's even a minimum of 150 km, but the least we can do is give the source of the image, to have the details.

Well, Ok I hadn't read some interesting information.
And to go even further, old vehicles should not be scrapped, but used until they die.
Completely agree but it's too late for me, I have two that have been scrapped, even though they could still have done at least 100 km and without receiving a bonus.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View NCSH » 10/07/24, 06:57

izentrop wrote:
Remundo wrote:We see that the electric ones only take the advantage from around 100 km
We knew that, it’s even a minimum of 150 km,but the least we can do is give the source of the image, to have the detail.
Well, Ok I hadn't read some interesting information.
And to go even further, old vehicles should not be scrapped, but used until they die.
Completely agree but it's too late for me, I have two that have been scrapped, even though they could still have done at least 100 km and without receiving a bonus.

The source of the image is included in the image: at the top left in red, there is the logo of a German technical school, it is at best the equivalent of our IUT.
Hochschule Coburg
This shows how everyone in Germany is mobilized to defend thermal engines.

With non-fossil synthetic fuels used not mixed with fossil (i.e. 100%), we commonly achieve a "decarbonization rate" of 90%, that is to say that there remains a residual share of fossil carbon from industrial processes, maritime and/or land transport, etc.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View izentrop » 10/07/24, 14:43

NCSH wrote:With non-fossil synthetic fuels used not mixed with fossil (i.e. 100%), we commonly achieve a "decarbonization rate" of 90%, that is to say that there remains a residual share of fossil carbon from industrial processes, maritime and/or land transport, etc.
Are dedicated crops replacing food crops, oil from machines, their construction and depreciation, synthetic fertilizers based on natural gas, phytosanitary products, ENR bonuses, the destruction of meadows generating CO2? .. :?: : Shock:
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




View NCSH » 10/07/24, 15:24

izentrop wrote:
NCSH wrote:With non-fossil synthetic fuels used not mixed with fossil (i.e. 100%), we commonly achieve a "decarbonization rate" of 90%, that is to say that there remains a residual share of fossil carbon from industrial processes, maritime and/or land transport, etc.
Are dedicated crops replacing food crops, oil from machines, their construction and depreciation, synthetic fertilizers based on natural gas, phytosanitary products, ENR bonuses, the destruction of meadows generating CO2? .. :?: : Shock:

All its considerations only concern agrofuels, at least in the strictest LCA and carbon assessment methodologies.

However, as I argue in the NCSH website and as I have previously developed in this forum, notably last year on this thread, to be able to satisfy significant quantitative needs, agrofuels will not be quantitatively sufficient: it will be necessary to resort to eFuels or even other processes, of pure synthesis, for which there is almost no quantitative limits thanks to solar energy and CO capture2 atmospheric, ie which completely free themselves from the constraints of biomass or so-called "biogenic" sources...
For this, see the pdf file to download in the Energy and Matter section.
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