Manufacturing a car and environment numbers!

[I Citro]

http://www.manicore.com/documentation/voit_elect.html
It does not detail more the calculation, but in principle, the balance sheets CO2, it is his job.
By the way, his article reworked on the electric car is not bad at all (as usual) )

Well I do not agree with him ...

In his article, he proposes to convert all our oil imports into electric km ... The premise seems to me to be false ...

I think we should rather reason in number of vehicles x their electric consumption.
In addition, it combines the electrical consumption of these faulty electric vehicles with current electrical consumption without taking into account network management (GRID) and peak production. Analysts normally say that electric vehicles need to be recharged during periods when power plants are overproduced to absorb excess production.

In any event, we will not replace all current cars with electric cars overnight. Current infrastructure already allows the power of several hundred thousand electric vehicles.
For my part, there is not a solution, but several to the problem ... And the car, which is currently the main mode of individual travel must lose this status and share it with other means MUCH LIGHTER AND EFFICIENT (bicycle, velomobiles ...)

[Did67]

Hi Did,

What you say is justified for "old gourds", but what is the definition? : D

For my part, I have a R19 injection 1,4L petrol catalyzed 1995 It is true that on old Diesel without FAP, that is discussed more.

.

1) You have reasoned to specify, the problem is more in the old Diesel (majority!): The quality of the injection deteriorates (which makes adjust its pump and its injectors ???), no DPF ... So " it smokes "...

You make 5,5 l / 100: well done for the drive. With the C1 you would be around 4 l ...

2) You are also right for the interview: how many catalysts which do not catalyze anything at all?

3) My old squash was a ZX Diesel at 325 km (from 000 I believe) and a Xantia TurboDiesel at 1990 km (from 340 I believe).

4) Of course the debate is much more complex.

To just clarify my attitude which is only mine: I have a C5 GPL (acquired under favorable conditions: an "exclusive", epay car, 23 km; 000 euros). It pained me to go to work alone with it. *
*
Unlike Citro, I remain interrgative in relation to electric cars. In short, I did not take the plunge, so I concede that it would be the logical continuation of my reflection.

With all the advantages of the moment, I therefore opted for an additional C1, converted to LPG, with which I go to work; we go out and we walk when there are 2 or 3 (or even 4 without luggage) ...

And the C5 becomes a kind of motorhome: full family outings (5) with dog and luggage or travel with my wife (we sleep in it). Suddenly, its lifespan will be very extended and ... it is the opposite of what I wrote above ...

That's why I say it's more complex!

Total cost of this fleet: around 22 euros (aid for LPG conversions deducted).

I will take stock, but the family's fuel consumption (therefore “petro-dependence”) is falling sharply. I think 30% at the very least. So the CO² proportionally. And emissions other than CO² too (much more, due to the LPG of the fleet).

[Remundo]

@ Did67: you did good business

@ Citro: EV is certainly a complex issue. I prefer to see things fairly simply, in order of priority:
1. Tend towards a plug-in hybrid because I am not convinced of the 100% EV, except for the 100% urban
2. Green the electric mix.
3. Develop fuels from biomass / organic waste (with well-designed cars, their moderate fuel consumption probably becomes compatible with biomass resources).

But for 1 /, it is very slow, for 2 /, I believe that in France it is unlikely even in 30 or 40 years, for 3 / it is still wishful thinking.

[Did67]

I have a C5 GPL (acquired under favorable conditions: an "exclusive", epay car, 23 km; 000 euros).

I had chatted a lot! With two fingers ...

Just to be understandable: "country cars", no, that doesn't exist; I was talking about a "car of Grandpa"

PS: found via the Internet; it's within everyone's reach.

Choose an "old connotated" car (the old C5 was a perfect example); in petrol version (for LPG) therefore sold off; "top of the range / full options" version = a sign of high income, therefore a well-maintained car, lying in a garage ...

It almost never misses. And during the transaction, you will have coffee and granny cakes! (true!) ...

It was at a time when diesel was 1,50 euros! She was unsaleable! I had found the same in V6 even cheaper!

The only problem is that there will be no tax credit for conversion if the vehicle emits more than 160 g of CO² before processing (140 g on January 1). I was tricked ... Otherwise, my budget was 2 euros less!

Of course, this does not work for a Golf GTI!

[Did67]

1. Tend towards a plug-in hybrid because I am not convinced of the 100% EV, except for the 100% urban

It was also my conviction until a few months ago, before completely changing my rifle.

Reduced to the 1 euros of investment, I am not sure that the hybrid is up to par.

Today, I am convinced of the contrary.

We will therefore move from the two squashes mentioned to two C1 (+1 C5 that we keep), all to LPG.

I obviously start from the acquis: the C5.

Either I replaced the squash with a Prius. And one of us continued to go to work in C5 GPL (in short moved 1,5 tonnes; 8 l of average petrol equivalent). And the other took the Prius (I don't know how many tonnes, around 4,5 l / 100 in real conditions, small zigzagging route). So 8 + 4,5 l = 12,5 l / 100 (and CO² in proportion).

Or, two C1 to LPG. Each moves 900 kg. Consumption = 2 x 4,5 l = 9 l / 100 (in real conditions, zigzag to climb with us from the plain of Alsace). We can even do a little better, I think. Surveys in progress ...

Cost at my expense for the two C1 LPG: about 16 euros (including one which is air conditioned) ... So much less than a single Prius!

And as already said, I am not talking about other emissions (CO, NOx, particles, which are so little talked about in France - and for good reason, it is the weak point of Diesel, advantageous rated CO²). The two C1 LPG crush the Prius by a factor of 3 to 10!

So for me, the hybrid is stillborn.

I'm waiting for the real electric, reliable and everything, with the infrastructures, for a real break ... In the meantime, I have decided. And I will have significantly reduced our emissions without hybrid ... (the 2nd purchase is only in progress).

Two snags to my reasoning (which I denounce immediately):

1) safety: obviously, I am less well protected against leaving the road and especially drivers with vehicles 1,5 m higher than the others ... Note however that the C1 is not ridiculous in this chapter : ventilated discs at the front, airbags (front + side in "comfort" series), seat belts with pretensioners, trajectory control ... This is no longer the 2CV!

2) one more insurance contract (certainly cheaper) ...

PS: I say C1 because in October, it was the best offer. Today, I think it's Aygo, at Toyota (it's the same thing). Tomorrow will be 107 at Peugeot ...

[Obamot]

Nevertheless we see immediately that there is something that does not stick!

Indeed, in Germany (where most BMs are manufactured) the electric kWh emits 0.6 kg of CO2. So 2780 kWh of electricity emit 2780 * 0.6 = 1 668 kg of CO2.

I presume that the CO2 displayed is the one directly rejected by the BM factories (foundry for the most part ...)! We should therefore increase the 1.7 T 0.84 T and so we would fall on about 2.5 tons of CO2 / car manufactured! 2500 kg of CO2 ca represents 140 g / km approximately 18 000 km traveled !!

So change car (scrapping bonus, eco-bonus of my corones ...) under the pretext that it is supposedly an "ecological" gesture will have to prove it to me again!

Here is the report "sustainable development of BM" (a lot of propaganda but it's better than nothing): https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 55DJQS.pdf

BM's "responsible" portal: http://www.bmwgroup.com/responsibility/

A related subject: https://www.econologie.com/forums/voitures-c ... t8710.html

The thing that does not "stick" especially for water, it would not be because they themselves already recycle some of the water they use to produce their cars? I say that but it's a pure hypothesis.

On the other hand, a gigantic source of savings, it would be that the concept of "built-in obsolescence" is not only prohibited but ultra severely punished by law (but it is not tomorrow the day before, unfortunately) ...

[Woodcutter]

[...] 2) Let us stop reasoning only CO² (and suddenly playing the media game). There are plenty of other pollutants. I reduce my particulate emissions much more (my old Xantia was starting to "smoke" - when I say "starting", to put it mildly - even with a light foot). We are just starting to discover the harmfulness of PM !!! My C1 GPL does not emit any more.

Same for the CO (divided by 10). And NOx (reduced by a third, I believe) ...

So let's stop counting only CO² (this is still the worst, from the point of view of human health! Let us know it). [...]

Already said elsewhere, but I put it here: that is easy western reasoning!
On a global scale this is completely false and CO2 is LE bigger problems to come man-made ...

[Woodcutter]

I come back a bit to this message which is very "oriented" ...

[...] 1) We can do much better than "scraping" 20 g of CO² / km. I am scrapping my Xantia Turbodiesel (not HDI). I do not have its characteristics. I estimate it at 160 g / km. I replace it with a C1 GPL (those who read me will end up with the knowledge!). I go to 95 g / km.

For an oil-fueled Xantia, 160 g CO2 corresponds to approximately 6.2 l / 100.
I suppose it is a "real" consumption since with my XM which has either the same engine (if Xantia 2.1 TurboD), or a bigger engine which is heavier, I make less than that on average. ..
On the other hand, the 95 g for the C1 constitute a "normalized" value ...
Real comparisons can only be made with use and I am not sure that the benefit will be as large as expected.

Same for the CO (divided by 10). And NOx (reduced by a third, I believe) ...

I would like to know where these figures come from?
OK for the reduction of NOx, but for CO, I don't believe it for a moment, it even seems to me that LPG emits more.

That we equip ourselves with LPG to drive cheaper, yes, but we must not advance "pseudo-green" arguments as justification ...

Last thing: my "oil squash" only emits less than 120 g of CO2 fossil...

[Did67]

On a global scale this is completely false and CO2 is LE bigger problems to come man-made ...

Allow me, because being more sensitive to health issues, to be more nuanced:

a) CO² the problem from a climatic point of view, yes, certainly. With other consequences (balances, storms, climate refugees, etc.). Yes.

b) in areas with high density, I think that the consequences of particles, NOx are currently seriously underestimated ... I have no proof ...

c) what I say: we focus too much on CO² compared to other programs ; it's simple, we only talk about that! In particular for cars and boilers, it is, according to my convictions, an important dead end.

Is that clearer ? We must fight against CO², but not only!

[Did67]

that's an easy western reasoning!

...

Yes of course.

Just two words: who here on this forum, lived 4 years in the depths of the bush ???

That said, today, I live in Alsace, 250 inhabitant / km² and I situate myself as such. Easy westerner, otherwise I will have neither this computer with internet access, nor 3 cars, a heated house. Besides, it is much simpler still: I will not be there because there would have been no SAMU to save me 2 and a half years ago !!!

So that I assume at ease ...