How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV helicopter-plane?

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Remundo
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How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV helicopter-plane?




by Remundo » 21/10/22, 10:55

Hello friends,

This topic is open to collect technical opinions, publications, achievements and suggestions on this rather exciting aeronautical theme:

helicopter planes

better known as:
* ADAV (vertical take-off and landing aircraft)
* VTOL (vertical take off and landing)


To give you a quick overview of the subject:
* planes are the most efficient in cruises; they fly much faster than helicopters with less energy expenditure
but they require long take-off/landing runways and do not hover
* Helicopters are the most efficient in manoeuvres, they take off from a reduced surface, can hover, make "chip jumps".
but they are fuel sinks and don't fly as well (in speed) and require mechanically very complex rotors.

Aeronautical engineers have been working on the subject for a long time, with more or less success: here is a small anthology and state of the prior art
* ADAV: French wiki
* VTOL: english wiki

recently the multirotor drones (often quadri) make the sector rebound, in particular by the electronic control of the device and the electric motorization, but they inherently have the defects of the helicopter (except that of the complex monorotor).

A first important question to ask in the design of a convertible aircraft is: where should the propellers be placed in airplane mode?

beforehand they should not be placed at the tail of the aircraft because there is a lot of turbulence there and the propeller works poorly there.

* at the wingtip?
* in the middle of the wing?
* on the nose ?

In an ADAV/VTOL, the question of placing rotors on the wings is serious, because by rotation of their axis of thrust, they will become thrusters in airplane mode.

And as Macro rightly said...
Macro wrote:Moving the propellers away from each other and from the body of the aircraft should probably limit the phenomena of disturbances of the airflows in suction of the said propellers. In addition (noted on my son's self-made four-engine drone) with the lever arm increases the maneuvering precision of the machine increases, but its reactivity (liveliness to change direction) decreases it is a story of compromise (from the moment the flows are no longer disturbed) if the beams are lengthened too much, the weight increases, the machine is more precise to stabilize but less reactive and loses load capacity, assuming that we keep the same management (case of my kid's drone) of engine regulation



Looking forward to reading you.
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Christophe » 21/10/22, 11:00

So there I would have all the answers since I've been on an aero project for years but there given the behavior of some about my streamlined trailer... I pass my turn, if it's still to be insulted ...

In other words: get over it! : Mrgreen:

A little help anyway, the first VTOL used industrially was the B22 Osprey and its development killed a lot of people... https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing-Bell_V-22_Osprey

And since when did Macro become an aero expert? : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:

The current quad drones that blow on the structure are already 99% poorly designed...the propellers must blow on the structure as little as possible...so they should be BELOW the carrying arms...

It's called incremental innovation : Lol:

The design of an aircraft is, even more than elsewhere, a story of compromise: a central tractor propeller is less good than a pusher propeller but this choice is made for reasons of mass centering...

Tractive propellers that blow on the wing increase the lift but also the turbulence on the wing.
A propulsion propeller on the wing, allows to have a completely laminar air on the wings but decreases the average speed therefore the lift and shifts the center of mass backwards.

In short, a story of compromise!

The Piaggio P180 is an original aeronautical design and more efficient than traditional designs: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P180_Avanti

Well, I've already said too much: you don't deserve my expertise! : Evil:

Last thing, I think I'm the only one to have studied and built an aircraft that transports humans and I'm currently a test pilot of my own machines... so the beautiful speakers behind their keyboards, let them go to the stock !
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Remundo » 21/10/22, 11:09

but I thought a little about you too with the Dragonfly.

Precisely, I find that it is urgent to have a friendlier atmosphere on the forum.

What Macro says is correct here even if he is not "expert".

I ask myself a lot of questions about the optimal positioning of the propellers because I see different contradictory phenomena that prevent me from concluding.

As explanatory pages of synthesis on the functioning of the propellers:
Propeller 1/2 by accrodavion
Propeller 2/2 by accrodavion
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by phil59 » 21/10/22, 11:14

My only experience was in the 75s, approximately, I had "lego", and a lego engine...

I wanted to make a turntable, I had made a "circle" in thick cardboard, and .... as I powered the lego motor with the "electric train" transformer, and I gave more 12V than 4.5V, it was spinning fast, and it took off .... took off a few centimeters from the table.

And I don't know why, because I was very interested in this phenomenon, but it was as if a little inner voice was telling me, if you want to live, stop it. And for one of the very rare times, I didn't persist ... even though I had plenty of ideas "for the "propeller plate", at the time ....



YES it is urgent that things return to calm here, and insults have nothing to do here.
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Christophe » 21/10/22, 11:17

Yes but no, Macro.n is talking nonsense: the speed upstream of a propeller is very low compared to the output... it is on the output that you have to optimize.

And the airflow of a propeller is not so centrifuged as that...obviously there should be no risk that the feathers of the propellers touch each other and keep a safety margin...on my Dragonfly I have a sufficient margin low, much lower than a quad drone in % of propeller size.

And then there I feel the Macro that will tell me that it's shit like my trailer! : Shock: : Shock: : Shock: : Shock:

Please Macro stay in your rods and pistons and your taxi or else start by doing a course on Froude's theory... because for the moment you are talking bullshit...

https://heliciel.com/helice/calcul-heli ... aptage.htm

So hush now! Get over it! : Frown: : Frown: : Frown:
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Christophe » 21/10/22, 11:20

phil59 wrote:My only experience was in the 75s, approximately, I had "lego", and a lego engine...

I wanted to make a turntable, I had made a "circle" in thick cardboard, and .... as I powered the lego motor with the "electric train" transformer, and I gave more 12V than 4.5V, it was spinning fast, and it took off .... took off a few centimeters from the table.

And I don't know why, because I was very interested in this phenomenon, but it was as if a little inner voice was telling me, if you want to live, stop it. And for one of the very rare times, I didn't persist ... even though I had plenty of ideas "for the "propeller plate", at the time ....

YES it is urgent that things return to calm here, and insults have nothing to do here.


We have another Doctor es Lego expert here! : Shock: : Mrgreen:

ps: for the insults, the beautiful hypocrisy!!

Read again, it is you who have been villainous and contemptuous (= a behavior of dirty idiots) towards me and that of my project on the subject of the trailer! Project that was very close to my heart and that I closed so that it doesn't degenerate too much!
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Remundo » 21/10/22, 11:24

good good guys

we will try to wipe away past resentments, at least on this subject. : Idea:

you see the negative feelings, it's not constructive at all.
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Christophe » 21/10/22, 11:38

I didn't start it!!!

Image

Surrounded by idiots who know nothing, or almost nothing, about a domain and who allow themselves to open it up, it disappoints me especially since I do things well...I think! : Evil: : Evil: : Evil:

Here I am calculating the comparative drag forces: the 4 m cubic trailer at 130 km/h a priori is 160 kg of drag according to the first simulation that I have just done! : Mrgreen: It's huge and that's why we don't see many at these speeds! : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:

But Macro will tell you I've already seen it and it's a good tool! : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by Macro » 21/10/22, 11:39

Good. I go back to my pistons...
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Re: How to properly design a VTOL/ADAV aircraft-helicopter?




by phil59 » 21/10/22, 11:40

Remundo wrote:good good guys

we will try to wipe away past resentments, at least on this subject. : Idea:

you see the negative feelings, it's not constructive at all.


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