Hybrid vehicles: illusion or solution?

[jeremie26]

Hello,

I am speaking to you as a student engineer of theSchool of Mines of Paris. With four of my colleagues, we are a group that studies and analyzes the controversy around HYBRID VEHICLES.

We need your opinion on the following questions:

- The performances, in terms of consumption and emissions, are they up to the efforts deployed (especially during the research and development phase)?

- what about the possibilities of recycling of "high performance batteries"? What to think of the development of lithium ion batteries?
( http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Lithium_Microscope.pdf )

- What an opinion about the CNW report claiming that "the Hummer would be greener than the Prius," after factoring in the entire design-consumption-recycle process?
( http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf )

- Do you think the oil lobby exerts pressure on manufacturers to prevent the production of this type of vehicle?

- Is the success of hybrid vehicles more linked to the efficiency of the product or to a "over-media coverage"from all those involved in the problem?

- Are hybrid vehicles a long-term solution or only one transition solution?


We thank you for your help and for your frankness with the answers (don't censor yourself, say what you think!).

[Christophe]

Here are some quick answers on the subject, in order. I'm not a far from hybrid advocate as you will understand:

- The cost / benefit ratio of hybridization is clearly questionable on small and medium vehicles or the vehicles of 80% of people (and therefore 80% of the market in number of units sold).

I speak in economic cost of course.

Example: take a modern diesel vehicle that consumes 5L per 100. If hybridization, in the best of cases, reduced this consumption to 4L per 100: what would be the point of return on comparative investment?

Always in return ... econological (financial for the buyer and in CO2 / pollution for the environment ... including gray energy!).

So downsizing (of the engine but also of the car) or the engine with variable compression ratio seem to me more judicious (cheaper, less complex and just as effective) than the hybrid ... and above all much more versatile and democratic.

- Before recycling the batteries: they must be manufactured! How many millions of tons of lithium would it take to "hybridize" 100% of new cars?

Bolivia, the world's leading producer of lithium, is likely to be the site of some tensions in the coming years ...

- Watch out for sources! You have to look at who is at the origin of a study before engraving it in stone:

Company Background

Founded in 1984, CNW Marketing / Research began as Coastal NW Publishing Company. Through the years, clients and subscribers have spread from the Great Northwest to include every state of the union (except Alabama), Australia, Europe, Asia and Canada. Clients include major automobile manufacturers, banks and lending institutions, Wall Street brokerage firms and consultants.

Source: http://cnwmr.com/sv001data/

Does it look like a "lobbies" from the American manufacturers to counter the success of the Prius (very sold in California)?

We talked about it here at the time: https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-hummer- ... t3044.html

- No, it is the manufacturers' lobby that curbs the development of hybrids and electric vehicles! Look at the dismal example of the cleanova?

https://www.econologie.com/cleanova-de-d ... -3962.html

- What a success?? If I'm not mistaken, there are 3 "mainstream" hybrid vehicles on the market: the prius 2, the honda civic and the honda insight = all Japanese!

Compare with the number of non-hybrid vehicles sold ...

- Difficult to answer: the hybrid may not be a solution at all? Look at the Prius: any modern diesel with an "eco" drive does better on CO2 ... So we are impatiently awaiting diesel hybrids, but the VCR will perhaps make it possible to do without hybridization? https://www.econologie.com/forums/mce-5-le-m ... t7283.html

In short, hybrids are far from being a solution, their goal is to make better use of a heat engine, but the basis of energy is precisely this heat engine ... and the next progress on heat engines could quickly make the principle of the hybrid! I am thinking in particular of VCR!

Manufacturers will not be able to do hybrid VCR + ... at a "reasonable" cost, it will be one or the other ... in the medium term!

The best solution, and therefore the chosen solution, will be the most profitable solution, not the best technologically ...

[dirk pitt]

The best solution, and therefore the chosen solution, will be the most profitable solution, not the best technologically ...

Toutafé.
it's been like that for a while now and it doesn't seem to want to change.
like the investigators, the question must always be asked: Who benefits from the crime? in this case, who benefits from this or that solution rather than another.
this remains true as long as we have a choice because the only cases where we take the best technical solution is actually when we no longer have the choice to do otherwise.

Hybridization can be a good choice in the sense that it is a slightly more flexible technical solution than 100% thermal. however, individual mobility needs are very varied:
go alone to the taf every day at 20 terminals,
or taking family and luggage to 400 terminals for the weekend or the holidays, it's not the same.
in this sense, well-thought-out hybridization (current hybrids are bad examples) can be a coherent compromise solution.
but as long as there is a choice of apparently abundant and inexpensive petroleum energy, what incentive do manufacturers and consumers have for this kind of technique?

the real choices will be made against the wall.

[Remundo]

I agree with Dirk Pitt's advice,

And besides, guys, you fell well ... On this site, there is everything what you are looking for on "the engine problem"

The hybrid is the best current solution, but it leads to dividing the oil consumption by 3 or 4 and the electrical network is currently not able to arrow transport electricity to overtax it ...

So obviously, the oil companies and the States do not agree ... Except in their speeches

[I Citro]

The best solution, and therefore the chosen solution, will be the most profitable solution, not the best technologically ...

Profitable for the user, or for the builder.
The Prius is profitable in terms of image, and after-sales service for the manufacturer.
For the user, it is less obvious ... as said Christophe, many diesels do better from a strict financial point of view.

The Prius can be justified in the case of a single vehicle per household for use or conventional thermals are very greedy (urban traffic jams) while allowing long-distance road use.

The hybrids currently offered are the archetype of what not to do. Parallel hybridization is the most complex to manage both electrically and mechanically because thermal traction is intimately associated with electric traction which combines the drawbacks of the 2 systems ...

Hybridization SERIES allows yields or consumption 2 times lower as proven by existing realizations (prototypes of individuals or vehicles of manufacturers like the extremely rare Kangoo electro road).
Ideally, series hybrid vehicles must be equipped with electric motors in the wheels (2 or 4) allowing savings on braking, transmission, steering ... They also allow more freedom to position the thermal generator ( suitably downsized) and batteries and capacitors. We can even imagine this removable group for commuting during the week in pure electric traction and the installation of the "rack" range extender for long journeys. Despite sophisticated technology and respectable weight, 2-liter vehicles per 100km are perfectly possible for budgets lower than those of current hybrids.

For my part, MY CURRENT SOLUTION is "multi hybridization":
For the budget of a new vehicle (I refuse to endorse what the manufacturers currently offer us), I choose several used vehicles; a Peugeot 106 4 seater electric, a scooter electric, an LPG sedan (renault safrane).
The order above corresponds to the order of use per km traveled. Indeed, now, the electric 106 has become our main car in terms of mileage performed.

A second electric car should soon replace my second LPG sedan which I sometimes use when the weather or other reasons disqualify the scooter ...

PS: This way of managing transport as original as it is is far from unique. Among electric vehicle users, this is the norm ...
The commercial success of hybrids represents the expression of motorists who are looking for something else, and who have nothing else to "get their teeth into".

[Christophe]

Profitable for the user, or for the builder.

The seller, therefore the manufacturer, of course ... it is he who decides the solutions, not the customers! This even if the engineers of the BE and the public relations directors are strong enough (or blind) to make you believe that it is the marketing studies which decide the programs of R & D ... bullshit!

It's funny but only on this forum we would probably be 50% to buy an ultra light vehicle of 400 kg and 40 hp ... but we must not be part of the "good population" from a marketing point of view!

[Remundo]

I plus Citro and Christophe ...

So +2

[Did67]

Well done Citro.

My thinking goes exactly in this direction. Except that I'm late ... But hey, pellet boiler, heart attack, we can not do everything!

And the Prius, this is what I wrote in the thread on the HUMMER:

Again, on the question of the Prius mentioned in passing, it all depends on where we set the bar !!!

The guy who goes to work alone with a Prius still rejects about 120 g of CO² ... If he takes a little puppy like Citroën C1, it's 106 g ... The scooter, I don't know, public transport less (unless he is alone on the bus!), the bike, nothing ... So there, in absolute terms, it is quickly seen.

Again, this is a "typical course" for these measures. If he goes down the Alsace plain with his Prius on the 4 lanes, he will consume and emit much more because he will not often have the opportunity to benefit from energy recovery ... therefore from the hybrid effect .

If like me, it descends from the foothills by a winding road and goes back up in the evening, it is sure that it can recover a little more energy (energy which I disciple under braking, although I try to anticipate a maximum , so I also save, since the injection (of LPG) is cut 200 or 300 m before the turn ...) and reuse it on the flat ...

So, yes, nothing to save the world, even if the gain depends a lot on the use made of the machine (and it is never said in the "pro-Prius" articles that I read).

Another way of seeing things: the guy who buys a Prius had enough to put € 25 in cash on the table. He could have bought - and probably would have - I do not know what big non-hybrid car (with roughly speaking, today emissions of 000 g / km, like Audi, Passat, Volvo ...).

If, rocked by the media (very generally pro-Prius), he thinks of saving the world, he is wrong. However, the world has "scratched" about 40 g of CO² / km. I prefer that than seeing him parading in an Audi (I have nothing against Audi, but it goes through my head). So I encourage him anyway ... assuming he was pretty much going to buy a mid-caliber car anyway.

And I buy a puppy, if I am not able to solve my transport problem better now!

[Did67]

It's funny but only on this forum we would probably be 50% to buy an ultra light vehicle of 400 kg and 40 hp ... but we must not be part of the "good population" from a marketing point of view! :?

Come on, I am denouncing myself: I have one or two more requirements.

1) Good protection (airbags, energy-absorbing body, etc ...), I was still a little traumatized to have seen the death up close (I drove an AX Diesel for a long time, but today hui, I would be scared in such a half-plastic sardine tin). Unless they reserve me special tracks without the excited with their "hard" bass drums ... SUV type. Although I consider the scooter in good weather.

2) The air conditioning (ouch ouch!), But I suffer from heat - heart forcing. And cold too (hence the "scooter in good weather").

But you say it yourself, we must represent peanuts in the average of the population of our regions.

[Leo Maximus]

I am speaking to you as a student engineer of theSchool of Mines of Paris. With four of my colleagues, we are a group that studies and analyzes the controversy around HYBRID VEHICLES.
We need your opinion on the following questions:
- The performances, in terms of consumption and emissions, are they up to the efforts deployed (especially during the research and development phase)?
- what about the possibilities of recycling of "high performance batteries"? What to think of the development of lithium ion batteries?
( http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Lithium_Microscope.pdf )
- What an opinion about the CNW report claiming that "the Hummer would be greener than the Prius," after factoring in the entire design-consumption-recycle process?
( http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf )
- Do you think the oil lobby exerts pressure on manufacturers to prevent the production of this type of vehicle?
- Is the success of hybrid vehicles more linked to the efficiency of the product or to a "over-media coverage"from all those involved in the problem?
- Are hybrid vehicles a long-term solution or only one transition solution?

Hello,

Why not contact the Toyota and Honda communications departments? they are nice and in addition they are the only manufacturers to manufacture and sell hybrid cars in the whole world for more than ten years, so I imagine that they can have some experience in this field.

At Toyota as at Honda it has always been said that the hybrid car is a transition between the standard thermal car and the electric car with hydrogen PAC.

As for the "pressures" of the oil lobby, the question does not really arise, the members of the board of directors of the oil company X are also often members of the board of directors of the car manufacturer Y and also members of the board of administration of bank Z and insurance company W, often, in addition, they lead a political career so they are not going to put pressure on themselves ...