The thermal hybrid / electric and generators

[jean63]

I went through your discussions and arguments on the subject (I did not look at everything but I will take the time one of these 4 because the subject interests me a lot).
A year ago I inquired about the TOYOTA PRIUS, I have the doc in front of me.
I believe it; what blocks it is the price approximately 25000 euros (eg a little less) and 2000 euros to be deducted for "green" vehicle.

Thermal engine: 1,5 liters / 77 HP.
Permanent magnet electric motor (500 V): 68 HP

Ultra-efficient electric motor more powerful than most gasoline competitors and an additional advantage: it instantly delivers maximum torque.

The combination of the electric motor and the gasoline engine ensures an acceleration from 0 to 100 km / h in 10,9 seconds (less than the world record holder of 100 m ..... but surely doped !!!!) .. .equivalent to a 2 liter petrol or diesel engine.

The electrical system (battery and motor) are guaranteed for 8 years.

To find out how it works, go to the TOYOTA website.

The hybrid unit delivers 111 hp from 85 km / h = the power of a 2-liter TOYOTA diesel.

CO2 emissions: 104 g / km same as similar diesel engines.

NOx and HC emissions <any car with combustion engine.

No particle emission.

Fuel consumption reduced by 40%.

Emissions <40% to European standards 2005.

The batteries are recharged when braking or decelerating (and when going downhill? ... I think you have to search in particular on the site of the PRIUS club).

There is a TOYOTA Owners Club site; they rally in all conditions setting battery life goals based on how they ride. Their experiences are very enriching.

this is not the club but I will look, there I must be absent:
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile-pratique/section1/sujet213447.htm

For me it is the top actuellemnt apart from the price which is still a little too high.

[ThierrySan]

I just found two small documents available on the net. They are well made and present the interest of the hybrid well. Everyone has their own opinion on it ... but that sums up the subject objectively!

http://ecolo.org/documents/documents_in ... -12-05.pdf
http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/modu ... ossier.pdf

NB: I only read the first document (very well done), but I visualized the small drawings of the second which present the systems well I find ...

However, I still believe that if we are looking to find real solutions to pollution, that is not where we will find them. But, I find that all this research could be very well exploited when the real solutions to the pollution are found (see my previous message.)

[jean63]

Interesting ! some extracts which prove that the hybrid has a future. What always bothers me about diesel is that you need a particulate filter that gets clogged and is very expensive. When it is blocked at 60000 kms, it must be changed. in addition, we are not sure that the very fine particles will not pass through and will not lodge at the bottom of the lungs of our dear children (that way they will not have any retirement problems, they will be dead before thanks to our bullshit):

In October, Jean-
Martin Folz, CEO of PSA, told the
Tokyo Motor Show as hybrid cars
gasoline are only a good solution
where diesel is not popular ...
A diesel hybrid car?
The manufacturer considers that the additional cost
imposed by the hybrid leads to a
unsustainable business model. he goes
even until judging the premium offered by
the government in order to promote the sale
hybrid models (tax reduction
2 euros from the start
2006) as a measure that hinders the
free competition since its models
less polluting diesel benefit
not. The manufacturer emphasizes the
growing share of its cars emitting
less than 120 grams of CO2 at
kilometer, or barely more than the least
pollutants which go down to 108 grams.
However, in the face of a hybrid vogue,
patent during the last fairs
automobiles from Frankfurt and Tokyo,
PSA cannot appear to be lagging behind. Hence the
next presentation of its know-how
technique in this area.

In front of them, PSA wraps itself in progress
produced on its diesel engines. We are
takes to dreaming of a diesel hybrid car.
Energy recovery thanks to
electric motor would further improve
PSA results to make his cars
the least polluting in the world ... A slogan
maybe worth a temporary sacrifice
on the altar of the economic model.

The Toyota Prius remains unmistakably
car pioneer
hybrid. The new version of the Prius
shows marked improvement in performance
with a consumption of
4,3 liters of gasoline per 100 km and 104 g
of CO2emitted per km, compared to respectively
5,1 liters per 100 km and 120 g / km
of CO2 for the first Prius.

PSA notes that some of its models,
smaller than the IMA, descend to
108 g / km. In fact, the difference of
consumption and pollution between
hybrid gasoline models and small
diesel cars may seem thin. For
so much, the progress made by Toyota and
Honda going to the second generation
hybrids demonstrate that this
technology has a large margin
improvement of its performance.
Enough to justify temporary help
of the State to stimulate the development of less polluting technologies.

I believe the hybrid has a bright future ahead of it as the Prius has been out now for almost 10 years. Guaranteeing the electrical system + accumulators for 8 years is a guarantee of reliability.

[Targol]

An interesting thing in the PSA pdf that I had not thought of: you need a double cooling circuit: one for the electric motor, the other for the heat engine. That must make liters of fleet in the car ...
... from there to say that it is a water car

[Woodcutter]

"Series hybrid" vehicles are not used a lot, are they ?! Because the yields shouldn't be too much ... Since the yields of heat engines are already not too high.

: roll: Definitely, when you decided not to read, you don't read yourself ...

The efficiency of a heat engine is not phenomenal, of course, but I told you that one of the advantages of the series hybrid was precisely to work on improving this efficiency thanks to the operation in almost constant regime. ...
Thereafter, the efficiency of the heat engine is excellent, so where is the problem?
Regarding use, until now there was nothing apart from diesel-electric locomotives.
The Chevrolet Volt prototype I spoke of before inaugurates, to my knowledge, this technology in an "everyday" automobile.

The "parallel hybrid" method vehicles are surely the most widely used.

Yes, all vehicles currently marketed and many prototypes are parallels.

So, I agree with you on this point: for sport or large cylinder engines, it starts to have advantages on consumption (from 30%).

Any reduction in consumption is good to take ...
The Prius can not really be considered "sport or big displacement" but it also manages to do 30% less than comparable vehicles, in urban conditions (less than 4 liters).

But what is interesting is not to look at the result alone, but as a whole.
What saves consumption is simply the electronic management behind fuel / electric hybridization. A bit like the solex!

Of course ... I guess you have some serious references to explain this to me in detail, I'm interested!

For me, with a hybrid fuel / electric, we will never achieve the same results as a hydrogen engine (or water engine), fuel cells, or a pantone process. Then, if we make hybrids between them, it seems even more interesting to me ...

The comparison is of little interest ...
The same results in terms of what?

A hydrogen engine does not consume hydrocarbons (fossils or plants), how to compare it with what is discussed in this subject? [HS On mode: there is no such thing as a water engine ... HS Off mode]
In addition, we are talking here about thermal / electric hybrids, basically ... The type of fuel is not necessarily a fossil hydrocarbon.

A heat pump is an electric generator that uses hydrogen, why compare it with a heat engine? On what criteria? However, a heat pump vehicle can possibly be considered as a hybrid since it has an on-board electric generator and electric motors (and probably batteries ...), but it does not fall within the scope of this subject. .

The Pantone is not a solution studied and produced industrially, therefore the comparison seems difficult to me ... In addition, the Pantone process applies to a gold heat engine, as I already said in this post, all the Improvements in heat engines are welcome, they are just as applicable in a thermal / electric hybrid.

Now, some small questions:
- how do you manage to recover the braking energy with only a hydrogen thermal engine, or a classic "Pantonized" fuel?
- How do you to travel in ZEV with these solutions? (It seems to me that the burning of H2 in an engine produces a little NOX ...)
- how do you manage power demand peaks (acceleration, slopes, ...) if you have decided to "down-size" as much as possible your heat engine (hydrogen or pantonized) that you use alone?

I would like to understand what turns you off in these solutions ...

[Woodcutter]

Interesting the little file of PSA.

But their quick presentation of the different modes (in the preamble) does not hide the fact that they made a vehicle based on existing platforms and components, which effectively excluded the path of the series hybrid from the start. ..

Chevrolet didn't have that constraint, apparently.

[jean63]

An interesting French site for hybrid and electric vehicles:
http://www.newteon.com/www/home.html

A full range of electric or hybrid vehicles (diesel and electric), utility or individuals is now available on the market.

NEWTEON operates Monaco, France and Europe.

Diesel hybrids are not really my thing, although with a DPF ..... they limit particles and CO2 emissions are low with diesel. rest the NOx .......

The Fiat Doblo is available in electric (for city deliveries):
it should be compulsory ot all delivery people run on diesel = particles in town => lung damage => asthma then cancer sometimes !! WELL DONE.

[Woodcutter]

[..] Diesel hybrids are not really my thing, although with a DPF ..... they limit particles and CO2 emissions are low with diesel. rest the NOx .......
[...]

The interest is to consume as little fuel as possible, and to produce less CO2, you know this thing that your gasoline and gas cars produce en masse ...

[abyssin3]

GM will release the "volt", marketed in 2/3 years. Apparently, this is what is best for the moment in hybrid: a 1L diesel engine powers the electric motor (= series hybrid). This should facilitate the change of thermal "engine" to switch from diesel to hydrogen, see PAC.
Apparently, the autonomy is 960Km, of which almost 100 in fully electric mode. + rechargeable batteries from the mains
GM Site
nature motor article
ThereIt starts to get interesting ...

[Woodcutter]

You preceded me for the link to Motor-Nature ...
Go see the vote and its results, it's interesting.


On the other hand, Abyssinian, when you pass on information, try to be more rigorous! The range in ZEV is 64 km and the engine is not at all a diesel ...