The car of the future

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
Michel Kieffer
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by Michel Kieffer » 05/01/09, 15:29

To bounce back on the words of Riaz, "Our builders and public authorities are pitiful":

What is the common characteristic * of "electric" and "gas" vehicles?

They have large condescending, moralistic and virtuous signs on their sides: "I drive green", "I drive without polluting", "I respect nature" ...

We could laugh it was not completely wrong! See page 7 document http://cocyane.chez-alice.fr/pdf/voitur ... et_co2.pdf

Conclusion, we all still have a job!

Michel Kieffer

* especially when these vehicles are purchased by public bodies concerned with setting an example
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 05/01/09, 15:37

I plusoye ... a car turns green because instead of 140 it emits 115 gr / CO2?

It does not prevent the public administrations have nevertheless made efforts: style the Post office with the electric kangoo (or equivalent) ... It is not their fault (albeit) if we sold them shit!

I think that this kind of contract is interesting as a full-scale "test bench" for manufacturers ...
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dirk pitt
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by dirk pitt » 05/01/09, 15:50

it's good Michel,
we understood that you were against the electric vehicle.
after it is very easy to find all the arguments that go in the direction of the thesis that we want to defend ....
then I will state my point of view one last time:
we can play with the numbers a bit but the overall efficiency of the well to wheel between a thermal vehicle and an electric vehicle is similar (I didn't say the same)
The reasons why I defend the electric are that the efficiency is not everything, there is local pollution during use (and CO2 is not the only criterion to take into account).
Electricity (which is not an energy but a vector of energy in passing) also makes it possible to use a varied panel of primary energies (including a part of renewable), which internal combustion engines hardly allow .
I could also talk about noise pollution in cities, etc., and I am not even talking about the depletion of oil, which will not be a choice but will impose itself on us as an unavoidable reality.

in short, a chao.
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Michel Kieffer
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by Michel Kieffer » 05/01/09, 16:45

Christophe and Dirk,

For my part, this is not an opinion, but a simple (and sad) observation:

Today, 1 electric joule of final energy (at the outlet) requires 2,8 joules of secondary energy, 55% of which emit CO2 (see page 25 doc http://cocyane.chez-alice.fr/pdf/electricite_et_co2.pdf )

1 MJ of final energy emits on average 0,128 kg of CO2 + nuclear waste… (see page 26 of the same document).

So, at equivalent mass, an electric vehicle emits a little more CO2 than a conventional vehicle, and nuclear waste + battery waste must be added (see pages 6 and 7 http://cocyane.chez-alice.fr/pdf/voitur ... et_co2.pdf ) + infrastructure waste (power stations, pylons, transformer, etc.). And again, the autonomy of such a vehicle is much less than conventional vehicles.

The balance sheet of the electric vehicle improves a little bit if it is lightened by further degrading its autonomy.

Now, why not for a small exclusively urban vehicle with a low rolling speed…

Regards

Michel
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by Christophe » 05/01/09, 16:58

Well, we agree: powering an electric car with a network other than 100% green electricity is bullshit. In primary energy balance, better a good little hdi :)

But Elec's thesis is precisely to develop this thanks to the PV (even if I have things to say about taxation in particular)

Here are the figures for 15 EU countries of CO2 emissions per kWh of electricity: https://www.econologie.com/europe-emissi ... -3722.html
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Elec
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by Elec » 05/01/09, 17:39

Michel Kieffer wrote:
PS: for urban travel, it's the bike that wins!

there is no question of winning or losing. it's all about a compromise between comfort, price, pleasure, environment, etc.

Michel,

I approve this message! And I will even go further: it is a question of respecting the freedom people. There is a sentence that I like very much and which sums up the situation well:

"We must organize ourselves collectively so that people can act and undertake with maximum freedom, within the global constraints defined by the capacities of ecosystems."

Alain Granjean, What if we make capitalism sustainable?March 2007

powering an electric car with a network other than 100% green electricity is bullshit.


Hmm ...
I invite you to read this paper: I find the demonstration very good.

The 21st Century Electric Car
http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm ... eading.pdf

Extract: "The electric car, once the“ zero-emissions ”darling of environmentalists, is sometimes maligned as an“ emissions-elsewhere ”vehicle, since the electricity to charge its batteries must be generated in electrical generation plants that produce emissions. This is a reasonable point, but we must then ask how much pollution an electric car produces per mile - accounting for all emissions, starting from the gas or oil well where the source fuel is extracted, all the way to the final consumption of electricity by the car's motor. When we work through the numbers, we find that the electric car is significantly more efficient and pollutes less than all alternatives (...) "
Last edited by Elec the 05 / 01 / 09, 17: 49, 2 edited once.
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by nlc » 05/01/09, 17:43

For me the car of the future will have 2 wheels: less bulky, lighter, less energy-consuming .....
And it will be electric 8)
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by Christophe » 05/01/09, 17:44

Yes compromise pleasure, time, price ...

In the urban paradox genre: taking your car to go to the gym or fitness club it always made me laugh ... yellow ...
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Elec
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by Elec » 05/01/09, 17:52

Christophe wrote:Yes compromise pleasure, time, price ...

In the urban paradox genre: taking your car to go to the gym or fitness club it always made me laugh ... yellow ...


This shocks me in the current climate context (these are petrol cars), and only in this context.

Outside of this climate emergency context (which can be compared to a war situation, hence drastic measures to limit GHG emissions), in my opinion, it is not for us to judge how people use their vehicle, where they go, what they do, with whom, how etc ...

NB - And do the gym in the car (without humor moved), what do you think Christophe?

GYM Electric Car is battery powered, but can also be recharged by integrated exercise equipment (...) -
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=19953

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And recharge the batteries of your electric car during the gym?
http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/i ... pedal.html

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Last edited by Elec the 05 / 01 / 09, 18: 11, 2 edited once.
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Michel Kieffer
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by Michel Kieffer » 05/01/09, 18:08

Christophe,

Thank you for the link, I found there: average European electricity: 0,46 kg of CO2 / kWh.

0,46 kg of CO2 / kWh = 0,128 kg of CO2 / MJ… phew! It is reassuring to arrive at the same thing by different people and different paths.

Michel
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