The car of the future: compressed air

[bernardd]

[note: deletion of a paragraph following publication error corrected by Obamot. Thank you !]

But when I say pragmatic, I was not talking about some sort "Eco-footprint" real performance, but pure performance: those that are needed somewhere to "to be safe" on the road (in the current configuration of road traffic "in everyday life".

So ask Peugeot the exact perfs of its hybrid vehicle or (its or rather Japanese) electric vehicle before it is released.

And look how long it took to develop them for vehicles already existing elsewhere, with hundreds of millions of € budget.

Do we hear alairgeek complaining about Peugeot? or renault who received hundreds of millions to design a battery factory which we have no news of? 2 weights 2 measures.

The real problem with MDI is that they talk. They should be closed like oysters and there would be no problem for the howlers.

But it would be a shame for everyone not to know that this initiative exists and is moving forward, as for other players in compressed air technology around the world.

[bernardd]

In mobile application, there is only MDI I know in development currently published

I do not see what is the validity of what they published? It is not as if they are a "scientific body". It seems to me that we are very far from it. Whenever we get feedback (Les Mines in France, EPFL in Switzerland) the same thing is said: caution with performance or big optimism ... And don't tell me that they are "sold" ", It would go very badly. Because if so, they would not have co-developed "Solar impulse", the solar plane ...

The expression "published development" is for me the opposite of "secret development", where the existence of a project is not public, not published.

The fact that the existence of the development is published does not prejudge the confidentiality of the development process: patent law requires that the techniques and methods used be kept secret. I don't think the 55 patents claimed by MDI to date are the last.

Ask experienced patents on this site :-)

The reports from the school of mines are work reports whose origin is not very clear, it seems made by students, from partial measurements on a single prototype stage. Who funded them? it's unknown.

EPFL is participating in the startup Enairys and Professor Rufer of EPFL was at the last presentation for the launch of the construction of the catecar factory:
http://www.catecar.ch/docs/20101006-NZZ.pdf
http://www.catecar.ch/docs/biosphere-20091210.mp3

As scientists, they are certainly careful, and that's normal: compressed air is not magic, it's first of all precision technology, details matter, they will make the difference between a successful product. or not.

And for the details, it takes time.

And even more time to have real measurements: after decades, still no measurement report published (according to several members of this site) on the efficiency of the recharging cycle of the batteries of an existing electric vehicle, between vehicle plug and engine. Not even on a bench ...

[Obamot]

...sorry! Double message published in error. It is rectified!

Bis-repetita: when I say pragmatic:
- I'm not talking about the relevance of performance intrinsic to this or that propulsion, or the merits of this or that techno ...
- I'm talking about pure performance outside the ecological game: cwhat users need in traffic "in everyday life". Bar point.

This is what matters to me, as I already said with the example of the behavior of the vehicle on the highway!

Patents is one thing, performance is another!

The reports of the school of mines are work reports whose origin is not very clear,

Because you think they are clear at MDI? Not for me, because I have not found anywhere that the announced performance will be achieved, it's even the opposite (for now). So as I do not want to take a stand and they are entitled to the benefit of the doubt. We are waiting ... In the meantime, there is no reason to be laudatory, I am like St. Thomas.

The fact that Rufer from EPFL was at the last presentation for the start of the construction of the catecar factory does not mean anything else to me, that he was there. When there is concrete, I will eventually take a stand.
The audio testimony of which you give the link, dates from 10.12.2009 and announces the start of production for "spring 2010". It therefore delays by almost a year! Another contradiction, on the site it is mentioned that production would actually start in 2013:
http://www.catecar.ch/fr_cars.html

[bernardd]

Bis-repetita: when I say pragmatic:
- I'm not talking about the relevance of performance intrinsic to this or that propulsion, or the merits of this or that techno ...
- I'm talking about pure performance outside the ecological game: cwhat users need in traffic "in everyday life". Bar point.

Okay, but there is nothing to say until the car is out. So I say nothing. As with other car manufacturers.

The fact that Rufer from EPFL was at the last presentation for the start of the construction of the catecar factory does not mean anything else to me, that he was there. When there is concrete, I will eventually take a stand.
Your audio testimony dates from 10.12.2009. They are therefore more than a year behind.

But this contradicts the gossip that EPFL took a stand against MDI: this is false.

I have not seen the dates, the gossip was denied since 2009?

[Obamot]

From what I understood and heard. The company you cite would like to finance research at EPFL, it does not give them a moral guarantee or a guarantee on a result ... And in any case, it shows that they will not be ready, at least not ready within the time frame they had set for themselves.

(!!!) Hopefully for them they will get there, but three years of rent until 2013 ... it's very expensive!

And I point out to you that they are ALREADY more cautious since they are just content to announce that the vehicle will exceed 50 km / h ... (a little better in pragmatism aaaah these Swiss ...) but still nothing on the real autonomy.

(I just went to check, but MDI lowered the speed of the vehicle, in the specs of the official site!)

[bernardd]

From what I understood and heard. The company you cite would like to finance research at EPFL, it does not give them a moral guarantee or a guarantee on a result ...

However, I had the impression of writing in French. Where would I have written this interpretation?

I wrote :

But this contradicts the gossip that EPFL took a stand against MDI: this is false.

I find it hard to understand that a clear and simple sentence is always interpreted wrongly. Let us stick to the written words.

And in any case, it shows that they will not be ready, at least not ready within the time they had set.

Another interpretation. This only shows that certain elements will not be as optimized as theory allows, on the first version, and that there will be room for improvement.

It is the essence of life, especially industrial.

We cannot blame both for not releasing a product, and to blame that it is not ideally perfect when it comes out ...

[Obamot]

No, there it is I who take you back on what I said. I was the one who mentioned EPFL. You resume my remarks by specifying the context. What does it mean? It does not in any case invalidate what he said! It was not so clear ...

This is not an interpretation: I have the date by the file itself, you can check it either in the URL, or by downloading the file to see the creation date and modification date.

[Alain G]

That's it, here we go again!

Nothing holds water at MD ...!

The engine without exchanger, promises never kept, the vehicle which is badly designed and which will not sell, and especially not at the prices that we are trying to make us believe, no independent validation, dates constantly postponed.


MD ... is a $$$ pump! Period!

Moderated message

[chatelot16]

Yes, but the idea is still to be pragmatic. And that is a concept that should benefit everyone.

To discover in a document with gross errors, that the Marshall plan still exists in 2010, and that it finances this type of study, in common with micromou, it is a fact. And a surprising fact.

Regarding the usefulness of compressed air as a renewable energy medium, it is also a fact.

In static application, for electricity storage, initiatives have been numerous for years, but confined to the somewhat closed world of "electric utilities". Examples of actors:

http://www.espcinc.com/

http://www.generalcompression.com/gcaes.html

http://www.pbenergy.com/caes.htm

http://www.isentropic.co.uk/

http://www.sustainx.com/isothermal_cycling.html

http://www.enairys.com/

Compressed air storage is as efficient and cheaper than pumping up water in dams, which caps at 70-75% efficiency. For example :
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blo ... er-storage

With pumped-hydro storage there are some losses from the pumping (and from evaporation of water from the upper reservoir), but a remarkable 70-85% of the electrical energy used to pump the water uphill is typically recovered when the water flows back down .

Enairys speaks of 70% efficiency for small storage, with a power of the order of 10kW.

SustainX displays results between 80% and 90% for industrial storage.
http://www.sustainx.com/isothermal_cycling.html

here are some serious ideas: the problem of compressed air being the price of the tank, when you can take advantage of an underground cavity, it is very profitable for very large energy

to a great depth, only the weight of the ground provides security against pressure

with fixed motor compressor, the weight is not limited, we can make a large number of stages and good exchangers: the output can be as good as we want and close to 100%

[bernardd]

with fixed motor compressor, the weight is not limited, we can make a large number of stages and good exchangers: the output can be as good as we want and close to 100%

Exactly! This is why we will find a solution for optimal efficiency during fixed compression.

Including by dedicating a specific tank at the outlet of each compression stage, where the air can wait to be cooled, possibly with refrigeration if this proves interesting one day.

In addition, in this configuration, there is naturally a stepped filling for the mobile tanks.

And each stage compressor can be run independently of the others, which allows the power load to be adapted to renewable, photovoltaic, wind or co-generation sources from biomass.