The renewable energy hydrogen car: the future?

[sicetaitsimple]

Not sure…

I think so, but anyway it doesn't matter.
Thermodynamic solar (CSP) is buried so deep at our latitudes compared to PV that there really is no point in talking about it anymore.
And even in more favorable areas, it sulfur.
Now, if anyone has a list of current CSP projects and how powerful they are globally, I'm all ears.

P: putting China aside, it's still a bit special....

[Remundo]

Yes, he's right.

"primary" energy has no special status between ordered work and heat.

It is a problem to judge performance and yield.

Primary energy is that extracted from nature, and this is a somewhat flaccid definition thermodynamically.

[Obamot]

What if... What if thermodynamic solar power plants were responsible for producing hydrogen (which we will end up badly need to replace oil?) at the lowest possible cost?

I think that the day when you will understand that there is absolutely no future for thermodynamic solar power plants in the latitudes of France, the hens will have teeth... (except demonstration/research project where it is enough to have a few more or less sunny months to carry out the ad hoc studies).
It's dead, do you understand? Must at least go to the South of Spain, and again, with great subsidies or purchase prices.
Here, find out about the last two big projects in the USA, Crescent Dunes and Ivanpah. Everything is available on the Net.

I completely agree with you. Except that I didn't say that the plants should be located in Europe!
I also agree with the fact that currently they are rather scattered, but patience... the oil will run out, and there we will necessarily have to build some, right?

[sicetaitsimple]

I completely agree with you. Except that I didn't say that the plants should be located in Europe!

Well that's perfect! Let the countries you are thinking of start by building CSP plants in large numbers, to first meet the needs of their population and their industry, they will then see, depending on their possible surpluses, whether the production and export of hydrogen is one way to go.

[Obamot]

Well seen...! But your answer lacks a bit of idealism or projection into the future...

It won't happen for a long time, since in the state oil remains more competitive (for our greatest misfortune)!

In the long run anyway, won't we be forced to come here?

[phil59]

In the long run anyway, won't we be forced to come here?

No, I do not think so. A supplement, yes, but not a "primary" means.

[Obamot]

You see what non-exhaustible “primary” means, to replace, please?

[NCSH]

What if... What if thermodynamic solar power plants were responsible for producing hydrogen (which we will end up badly need to replace oil?) at the lowest possible cost?

Because we can already see the limits of EVs, which confiscate (and will always confiscate) far too much of the electricity produced by nuclear power plants... EVs will be good for urban centres, hydrogen for the rest ?

(and the buildings which will have to be isolated throughout the park and end up tempering other than with electricity...! I point out the audacious plan of the Swiss who are in the process of mapping all the underground of their country to exploit geothermal deposits for this purpose)

I seem to have already explained that solar thermodynamics now only had a future in the production of nocturnal electricity, or similar thanks to the low cost of storage and only below a latitude of about 40°.
That is approximately $100/MWh currently, evolving by 2030 towards 50.
However, solar electricity from photovoltaic solar parks in the tropics is much cheaper, with minimums of $25/MWh from 2016 and 10 in 2021. These "records" will become the norm in the decades to come.
Because in all areas, you will have to go under the "limbo"...

Definitely, we will have to ask ourselves the question for Obamot of a start of Alzeimer!
This had been mentioned on October 20 on another thread which also addressed the subject of solar energy as the primary source of global superabundant energy, but difficult to harness so far.

At the lowest possible cost, it's not just liquefied hydrogen that remains tricky to handle, to transport from the tropics (- 253°C), the same for ammonia (- 30°C), so with higher storage costs which in particular prevent inter-seasonal storage in large quantities ...
It is not so much a question of making technological prowess that flatters the ego of a few engineers in search of sensations as of making available for all uses energy vectors that are easy to use in everyday life...

This is where the good old solutions of gaseous or liquid hydrocarbon chains have many advantages, since we know how to synthesize them massively in a non-fossil way...
Without having to tumble from top to bottom all energy-consuming economic activities!

[Obamot]

Ah bein me who thought I was doing well thinking precisely of you talking about the hydrogen sector! And pan in my mouth!
That'll teach me!

Perhaps you can explain/remind us how to convert electricity from PV panels into hydrogen (in a form that can be used to power heavy (and less heavy) vehicles and with what efficiency...?
So for what cost per 100km compared to petrol or EVs...?

[NCSH]

Oh well, I was just thinking of you when talking about the hydrogen sector... And pop in my face!
Never mind.

Perhaps you can explain/remind us how to convert electricity from PV panels into hydrogen (in a form that can be used to power heavy (and less heavy) vehicles and with what efficiency... so for what cost per 100km compared to petrol or EVs...?

That's a lot of questions at once!

From large-scale solar parks, each production unit aims to produce at least a few hundred ktoe per year, or even rather Mtoe per year...

This is the only solution that makes it possible to reach reasonable cost levels: €1.25/litre around 2030, rising to €0.65/litre around 2050.
It is therefore a production cost, slightly higher than diesel/kerozene/gasoline coming out of refineries until last year.
This costing was done by the Technical University of Lappaarenta, Finland (in Karelia near the Russian border) and made public in September 2022.

To massively produce solar hydrogen, it is necessary to use high-power alkaline electrolysers (PEM electrolysers have the problem of platinum, a too rare resource), announced since 2018 by Krupp at 20 MWe, and 100 MWe around 2030 (with a maximum estimated at 500 MWe in future decades). The typical yield is around 65%, with low prospects for improvement (70%).

The second step is the FT synthesis of hydrocarbon chains, with carbon taken from the atmosphere or DAC (multiple principles are available, the current reference is that of the world-renowned Zurich start-up ClimeWork).
The apparent yield from the starting photovoltaic electricity is at least 40%, or even 50 later.

This may seem ridiculous, so much have we been nurtured by the cult of performance for twenty years...

But the end result, the production cost is not very high and it is to reuse a maximum of transport, storage and distribution chains...
The only investments to be made are equivalent to those made by the oil industry for the extraction of fossil oil.