G.Negre's Air Car in the FR2 Newspaper

[BobFuck]

In 10 years, when the compressed air wheelbarrow is finally ready, we will have, I hope, developed this:

Natural gas, methane or methanol -> fuel cell (50% efficiency) -> supercapacitor -> electric motor (80%).

Either an overall efficiency of 40% which would move a tweezy with less than 0.5 l / 100 of liquefied gas (or even better, methanol), and for an electric 2 wheeler, much less ...

So, yeah, 40% is the performance of an ultra-modern diesel in optimal conditions ... but a powerful diesel (like 100hp), not a 5-10hp engine which is enough to move a tweezy or a spoiler, but which has a yield so bad (5%) that it consumes as much as the little Volkswagen!

MDI gives an efficiency of the grip at the wheel of 25%, "yes but in real conditions we have 40% (I ask to see).

If you burn the gas in a power plant (60% for the most advanced), distribute the electricity, etc., in the end we will have the well to the wheel ... like, 12%?

And if we make electricity with coal, it's worse.

It is to shit like performance. The fuel cell is a much more promising path, if we talk about future technologies. To compare with current technologies, diesel is already doing better.

So I don't think we're going to see her out anytime soon ...

[moinsdewatt]

...... another possible niche for compressed air: hybridization of a thermal engine: use of the engine as a compressor in braking, and as a compressed air engine, at startup, so we just reutiliser the mechanics already existing, the system weighs only the tank

eh eh ,

it just came out!
Revealed to the press today.

The secret has been well kept, here is a new smashing:

PSA Peugeot Citroën launches the battle for low-cost hybrid vehicles

This innovative compressed air solution would be marketed in 2016.

22 Janv 2013 The Echoes

In front of all the existing models or in project of hybrid cars, PSA Peugeot Citroën tries a small revolution with "his" solution: the hybrid technology ... with compressed air. No longer grafting an electric motor, with a heavy battery, on a heat engine, it is this time to marry a small gasoline engine with compressed air. A bold path, but which relies heavily on proven components. And which aims to significantly lower the cost price of these vehicles. A challenge for industry specialists, including Toyota, the father of the Yaris.

PSA has developed a new hybrid vehicle concept combining a gasoline engine with a compressed air engine, but without the traditional electric battery. - MONIQUE DUPONT-SAGORIN

If the compressed air was already stored on submarines since the Second World War, no one has for the moment engaged in this technology en masse in the automotive world. Philippe Varin, CEO of PSA, unveiled Tuesday this new industry, Hydrid Air, developed in the secret with Bosch, for nearly two years, on four prototypes that have already accumulated 20.000 kilometers. In presenting this work, Guillaume Faury, director of research at PSA, said he wanted to market these first vehicles from 2016, on both brands of the group, although "it remains to cross the stages of industrialization."

At the next Geneva Motor Show in March, Peugeot and Citroën will unveil the first models equipped with the "Hybrid Air". Particularly suitable for cars of segments B and C and utilities, this option could interest for example the replacements of the current Citroën C3 and Peugeot 208. In addition, the General Motors ally could acquire it on the shelf, especially for Opel: "Beyond projects already launched with GM, we will continue to look at innovative topics with them in 2013, so things are open", says Guillaume Faury.

Hybrid low cost?

With its new philosopher's stone, will PSA go so far as to invent the "low cost hybrid"? For the moment, its avowed aim is to develop models emitting about 70 grams of CO2 to 100 kilometers (for now, only 100% electric vehicles do better), consuming 30% less fuel than a version thermal and displayed at less than 20.000 euros. While its current specialty, the diesel hybrid starts rather beyond 30.000 euros. The new project is not aimed at the same customers and could interest, in addition to Europe, emerging countries such as China.

Convinced of the interest of the formula, the State put its hand in the pocket, investing as early as the upstream phase of the project, via the General Commissariat for Investment (CGI), taking a blocking minority in a joint venture led by PSA (Technoboost). "This technology is robust, affordable, easy to maintain, its market will go far beyond Europe," according to Bernd Bohr, head of Bosch. PSA refuses to give an idea of ​​its past and future investment.

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-sect ... 531049.php

You must of course read 70 grams of CO2 per kilometer (one km).

[roy1361]

... PSA refuses to give an idea of ​​its past and future investment.

It's very interesting.

And we can dream that this new car is produced in France with some of the 8000 "unwanted" ...

[Obamot]

... PSA refuses to give an idea of ​​its past and future investment.

It's very interesting.

And we can dream that this new car is produced in France with some of the 8000 "unwanted" ...

2016 is far away ...

It will give some grain to grind to Guy Nègre

[moinsdewatt]

.... 2016 it's been a long way ...

It will give some grain to grind to Guy Nègre

PSA has had to pave the way for European patents on this case.

It will be hard for Guy Négre and MDI.

Otherwise they still have the possibility of paying royalties to PSA to use the patents ........

[Janic]

As a reminder, Guy Nègre's first engine was a real hybrid, sometimes operating with compressed air and relayed by the thermal function.

[Christophe]

Well, he should have stopped at this idea ... cf: https://www.econologie.com/forums/nouvelle-h ... 12245.html

[Remundo]

.... 2016 it's been a long way ...

It will give some grain to grind to Guy Nègre

PSA has had to pave the way for European patents on this case.

It will be hard for Guy Négre and MDI.

Otherwise they still have the possibility of paying royalties to PSA to use the patents ........

I'm not sure their "patents" really compete. Everything should be analyzed in detail. Their technical purpose is not the same.

Besides, don't give patents more importance than they have ... If PSA and BOSCH want to recover kinetic energy by compressed air, I don't think they will ask anyone's permission ...

In 2013, there is a very broad technological background in this technical area.

What is in this vehicle? One or two compressed air cylinders, some hydraulics, with a pump and a motor (which could have been combined in a single reversible machine) ...

A little "intelligence" in the electronic piloting. There is material to patent for a large group.

But hey, this vehicle "inflates" me with its "mixing of wind"!

It will do the same as a Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive. That is to say 0.5L / 100km less than a conventional thermal in town, almost no gain on road / highway.

It is a media blow much more than a notable technical progress.

[Obamot]

Yes, we can understand that we came back against such a "blow"!

Which, as you recall, does not change the basic problem! But would a solution of an ideal hybrid vehicle (therefore without fossil fuel) be feasible? And even salable in the current state of the world? If the answer is "no", then we can consider that this transitory solution has the merit of existing!

Thus, it does not prevent that in the great “concert of hybrids”, this solution shows a certain way while waiting for the era of graphene ultraconensers and the exit of fossil fuels with the advent of energy efficiency and the era of all-electric transport ... This is also the prospect of vehicles that are cheaper to use and easier to maintain for users (because if energy recovery fails, it is not all electronics which falls in the harbor ...) in addition, it is necessary to think of the economic interest for the consumers having little means! Refuel still doubled since the seventies ... And especially the evolution of mentalities in the direction of the "spontaneous choice" of consumers - towards innovative solutions, is unfortunately not for tomorrow - as towards ultralight vehicles, although in the near future, very high security, since it can never collide again, because all interconnected with each other via GPS (and other GSM overlap to improve accuracy to the centimeter) and updated in real time thanks in Galileo ... (This would already be possible given the current state of knowledge)

Basically the main problem in the diversification of propulsion is not marketing but mass available energy supply and the approval (or not) of consumers who are not, and by far not, fully malleable to thank you by the ad ... it's not a scoop. In the still alternative solutions:

- for electricity, projects like Désertec are struggling to see the light of day (even though we could now clean the reflectors without the slightest drop of water) because of growing Islamism (against all expectations) in Muslim countries "liberated". But which is above all a Machiavellian strategy of destabilization of the CIA, of all the southern zone of Europe, to prevent access to energy "almost free", and to continue in the current suicidal way ...

- for hydrogen and fuel cells it is on standby ... Toyota announced two years ago that it would be "on point" this year or at the latest next year (I am delighted to see what they will say at the Geneva Motor Show in March ...)

- remains the endemic problem of the release of oil (and the blackmail that goes with it ...) knowing, as Ahmed likes to recall, that this would be depriving America of fresh money for their "laundress" supposed to wash a part of their debt (up to half of world GDP if we are to believe Myret Zaki), because the great petrodollar ball would end up drying up and the dollar itself collapsing with it (a threat for them which is likely to arrive without even getting out of the oil ...)!

In the meantime, it is necessary to develop the fields of renewable energies as Germany and Switzerland are doing, in order to try to best preserve security of supply, which is an issue as much economic as strategic and military.

No blue, it's crazy what can bring us the prout-prout of Guy Nègre ... it's crazy!

[Janic]

- for electricity, projects like Désertec are struggling to see the light of day

a technically feasible but politically silly project! This would keep dependence on an external supply, when it is oil or electricity where is the difference?