Scientific and theoretical summary of the Pantone system

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Pascalou
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by Pascalou » 13/02/14, 06:25

Hi Totem, thank you very much for your comments! Yes, I also know that savings of 50% are possible with good DIY, I also know several who have arrived there, even with fairly recent vehicles, but it's always interesting to hear it!
For the reactor, the best is stainless steel 310, (also called refractory stainless steel) it is the most resistant and the most reliable over time. But stainless steel 304 or 316 also works, be careful not to mix stainless steel, it can end up breaking the welds between the different alloys!
I live in Germany, and there the system is prohibited, I have not yet found a mechanic who agrees to take the risk of letting the technical control pass with the system. They are very strict on what they do not know (Germany is known for that, in addition the mechanics are afraid of insurance which reimburses only if everything is absolutely in the "rules"). Thus the affirmations of my rather European document ... I know very well that in France, it is much easier.

As for the kits, I am convinced that a good homemade installation, with the right flow of water, is much better than the kits sold:
For petrol and only petrol! Recent vehicles have wealth regulation with electronic calculator. (lamda probe + cathalitic pot) This is incompatible with a good homemade system because the system, when it works well, increases the O2 concentration in the exhaust gas. the Lamda probe is normally adjusted by this concentration. So with the Gillier-Pantone system and the electronic wealth control (air + fuel mixture) still present, the wealth is completely out of whack. Which is not the goal and distorts any consumption test. So my opinion is that it is necessary to at least turn or rather distort the Lamda probe to adjust the richness to 1 (ie constant, the professionals know how) to thus have reliable consumption tests. You can even transfer the cathalytic pot, but here it is if you are very sure of yourself (no turning back!), And that your installation is clean, reliable and mastered. Your results of de-pollution will then be equal to see better than with the cathalytic pot, and your consumption will drop frankly.

These kits are good, they have the merit of definitively proving the veracity of the system, but they are "restricted", as described in my doc. they adapt to the richness regulation of recent cars by injecting very little steam, therefore no adjustment of the richness, but a very reduced efficiency! They also have the advantage of being assembled very quickly and requiring no adjustment.
And then imagine that we sell "real" effective kit which save 30% on average, it would be too revolutionary for many, not out of hypocrisy, we sell a inefficient kit which saves 10 or 15% to make believe that the he invention is ultimately not as effective as some say.
It would not surprise me that soon, when the oil is really going to run out, they really release the invention, and everyone will say that it is great, while it has been decades since the invention exists!
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Totem
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by Totem » 13/02/14, 12:57

Hello Flytox,

1) As for the testimony of the assembly, I can ask, I don't know ... But I just passed on an assembly tutorial to another friend, who will mount it now ... He knows it very good in mechanics ... Until boning a car to reassemble it!

So business to follow ...

2) Side size of the kit, I share your point of view ... So you confirm what I thought: the smaller it is, the less effective it is on the yield side ...

3) Side auto insurance, well it's simple: You have open insurers (like AGF ...) and others a little stuck ... The majority of those who use the kit do not declare it to their insurance ...

I think it is dangerous, because if there is an expert, on the reimbursement side that can blow up the insurer's commitment! I think you have to play fair: when you sign the contract, you mention something like "read and approved", vehicle with a Gillier-Pantone kit + signature

Or request a certificate from your insurer ...

I know that the ecopra site communicated on it, and then I phoned a lot of communities (Mairie de Conflans Saint Honorine, General Council of the Moselle ...) ... and then I made my own opinion. .


For Pascalou:

1) Thank you for your information! The stainless steel materials 316, 304 and 310, without mixing it; this is good information that ... Do you know the material budget to build it is even custom?

2) Germany prohibited: In fact, unless I am mistaken, the Pantone system would have been patented by its creator, but in France there has never been a patent, so we can copy it freely ... Hence a micro-market in France ... In Germany it is forbidden, perhaps for lack of authorization (patents, rights ...)?

3) Legality on modifying your vehicle: Handmade, custom made, I totally share your opinion. But don't you think that from the moment you tackle welds, you drill holes for your exhaust line (etc ...), you become outlaw? Because, unless I am mistaken, as soon as you pierce, soda, it is impregnated in the vehicle, it is considered as a modification, while if you pose (washers, etc ...), it is different ... We do not change anything, we do not modify anything, we only add something. There, I know that we are playing with words, but legally speaking, it can hold water for good jurisprudence in the future (if the kit becomes more popular)? For this question, the DRIRE considers that even without drilling, it is already a modification ... I think that they say "no" to the DRIRE by simple instruction. Not recognized by gray card = illegal. An endless subject I think ...

4) For your argument about recent vehicles, I share your point of view, but I had learned that we could "cheat" the electronic system ... Ecopra says it ... After, I did not checked either ...

5) Not being a fine handyman and a mechanical pro, I thought I would choose the compromise of the kit sold, even if I am aware that it is not tailor-made, given that I know that I could get out of it alone to install it ... But build one, there, joker!

6) Yes, the kit may be too early, but I rather think that it is the manufacturers who will release a non-patented (or rather patented) technology, specific to their brand ...

And still, I think that strategically speaking, I think that the kit will never even come out by the manufacturers, because it is less profitable than selling new vehicles, with concept, ergonomics, progress ... marketing the kit, would give the sign of devaluation marketing of new vehicles, less arguments to change your car, except by fashion ... And yes, imagine a car that is 20 years old, which pollutes and consumes almost as little as a new car! It's 2 less arguments to consume new !!

So following your answers, I think to orient myself:
- Either do it tailor-made with a friend (I still have to find the time)
- Either take the biggest (and most expensive) kit, the ecopra kit

PfooUUu the dilemma!
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by dede2002 » 13/02/14, 15:58

Hello Pascalou and everyone,

I have also been trying for a long time to understand how the Pantone system works.
I just give you my impressions (intuitions?)
-In the exhaust there is a lot of energy to recover.
-If we manage to decrease the temperature of the exhaust at the same power, we will have increased the efficiency.
-The combustion of petroleum gives off a lot of water, more than the addition of steam from the system, we can deduce that it is not this contribution which is likely to cause corrosion damage, at least not more than usual.

-In the case of a petrol engine, if the exhaust gases are used to make and transport the steam, a neutral gas and possibly a stoichiometric (oxyhydric) mixture will be added to the intake, but in no case excess oxygen. So the lambda regulation should work properly.

By comparing with an EGR, it can be seen that the EGR recycles a hot gas which reduces the useful volume, without participating in the increase in pressure.
With the Pantone system, this exhaust gas is strongly cooled by evaporating the water, and a gas (neutral or active) is reinjected which contributes to the increase in pressure by heating up.

If the exhaust gases are effectively cooled, the catalyst will no longer function.
Either you don't need it anymore, or you put the system after ...?

In a diesel on the other hand one can add air with the vapor without apparent problems.

A+ :D
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by Flytox » 13/02/14, 21:59

Pascalou wrote:For petrol and only petrol! Recent vehicles have wealth regulation with electronic calculator. (lamda probe + cathalitic pot) This is incompatible with a good homemade system because the system, when it works well, increases the O2 concentration in the exhaust gas. the Lamda probe is normally adjusted by this concentration. So with the Gillier-Pantone system and the electronic wealth control (air + fuel mixture) still present, the wealth is completely out of whack. Which is not the goal and distorts any consumption test. So my opinion is that it is necessary to at least turn or rather distort the Lamda probe to adjust the richness to 1 (ie constant, the professionals know how) to thus have reliable consumption tests. You can even transfer the cathalytic pot, but here it is if you are very sure of yourself (no turning back!), And that your installation is clean, reliable and mastered. Your de-pollution results will then be equal or better than with the catalytic converter, and your consumption will drop frankly.


Do you have a link to prove this? Several have already said "free", but I never found a serious comparison documented on the net made with the pollution bench. :|

These kits are good, they have the merit of definitively proving the veracity of the system, but they are "restricted", as described in my doc. they adapt to the richness regulation of recent cars by injecting very little steam, therefore no adjustment of the richness, but a very reduced efficiency!


The amount of steam is certainly important, but the quality of the "steam" seems to me more important still. (quantity and diameter of water droplets in the steam according to the needs of the engine).

And then imagine that we sell "real" effective kit which save 30% on average, it would be too revolutionary for many, not out of hypocrisy, we sell a inefficient kit which saves 10 or 15% to make believe that the he invention is ultimately not as effective as some say.


Not followed your reasoning .......:?:
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by Flytox » 13/02/14, 22:26

Hello dede2002
dede2002 wrote:By comparing with an EGR, it can be seen that the EGR recycles a hot gas which reduces the useful volume, without participating in the increase in pressure.
With the Pantone system, this exhaust gas is strongly cooled by evaporating the water, and a gas (neutral or active) is reinjected which contributes to the increase in pressure by heating up.

If the exhaust gases are effectively cooled, the catalyst will no longer function.
Either don't need it anymore, or put the system after
...?


In order for the catalyst to stop working at the most frequently used engine speed, the exhaust temperature should really be lowered (like - 100 or - 150 ° C?). I don't think we know how to do it with a Pantone or Gillier pantone system. Rather, it would be reaching its minimum operating temperature at a slightly higher speed / load.

By making my R1.6 Diesel drink up to 100 liters of water per 19 km, its exhaust temperature did not move very much (from memory - 20 ° C).

If you place the reactor after the catalyst, there is much less heat left .... not chai if that will be enough for it to work properly. : Cry:
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by dede2002 » 14/02/14, 08:24

Hello,

In fact, the catalyst heats up when it is working, because it burns the unburned. If there is less unburnt with the steam, it will heat less, ideally it should be useless if we manage to burn everything.

Regarding the vaporization energy, 1.4 l. of water requires 0.09 l. of gasoline to pass into vapor. (with 2250 kJ / kg)

About 1,5% of vehicle consumption.

16 l should be evaporated. of water to use the heat of 1 l. of fuel ... it seems like a false lead.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I just did the math ...
1.4x (2250/3600) / 10

A+
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by Pascalou » 15/02/14, 10:34

Hi Dede, I have to find my calculations on the problem, but I remember that if we spray 1l of water per hour, we recover about 1% of the total energy at the exhaust, which is not much. It is on the 100% pantone that this recycling can become interesting.
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by Pascalou » 17/02/14, 20:22

Calculation of recycled energy from the exhaust by steam generator and reactors

We can calculate the energy recovered from the exhaust if we know the temperature before and after the system and the water flow:
example:
T before: 20 ° C
T after: 400 ° C
water flow rate: 1L / h or 0,000278 Kg / s
Formula: P (Kw) = Qm (Kg / s) * Cp * Delta T

sensible heat liquid phase: 0,000278 * 4,18 * 80 = 0,093 Kw or 93W
latent heat: 0,000278 * 2253,5 = 0,626Kw or 626W
sensible heat gas phase: 0,000278 * 1,881 * 300 = 0,157 Kw or 157W

Total: 93 + 626 + 157 = 878W or approximately 0,9 Kw recovered in Total

You see, it's not a lot of energy recovered, the "secret" is elsewhere. Dissociation in the engine or eléctrisation of this vapor!
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by Pascalou » 17/02/14, 20:30

Precision, in an exhaust of a useful 50Kw engine, there is between 50 and 60kw of exhaust loss, so 0.9 kw is very can!
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by dede2002 » 17/02/14, 21:32

There is a shell ...

But it is true that a large part of the energy leaves in the exhaust. Logically this is where there is the most to recover.

Edit: I misread ...

50 kW useful at 20% efficiency makes 250 kW in all, how much at the exhaust?

Dissociation in the reactor, it would be ideal, how much energy to dissociate 1 liter of water?

In the combustion chamber?

There is something I did not understand well: if we send a drop of water in the combustion, it will pass into vapor, its volume will therefore increase the pressure too, but it will absorb heat, therefore decrease the pressure at all. Balance sheet??
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