Scientific and theoretical summary of the Pantone system

[Pascalou]

Yes I also think like you, we have to do with a non-constant engine speed, and which does not "work" either with constancy (up, down, highway ...) So it is very difficult to give returns or losses constant. Despite everything, I pence that many have closely studied our old thermal engine, so certain data is no longer to be called into question even if it gives an approximation (here I am obviously talking about the non-pantoné engine) and gives a basis for orientation : for example André on this forum often says that one must consider that an engine has its energy released in three parts: 1/3 cooling, 1/3 exhaust and 1/3 of useful energy. And that is always true. it gives a basis to move forward.

But if you want to have fun calculating:
First of all I would take a delta T of 700, not 500, because the temperature at the exit of the engine is between 650 and 750 ° C and it is this temperature which is representative.
here are two documents which are quite complete, but there are plenty of others if you are looking for, but good luck, your job awaiting you:

http://hmf.enseeiht.fr/travaux/CD9900/t ... /refre.htm
http://bibli.ec-lyon.fr/exl-doc/TH_T1442_zlu.pdf

[dede2002]

Thank you for these very interesting links!

The first would be interesting to boost, given its gargantuan consumption

I am measuring the exhaust temperature, not easy to obtain an exact result!

Come to think of it, it's not just thermal energy that leaves in the exhaust, we can add the kinetic energy of the gases, which increases squared in their speed *, coming from the pressure at l opening of the valve and the 4th cycle time.
* which depends on the volume, therefore on the temperature
A+

[dede2002]

A reflection on the subject of unburnt:

To gain power, distributors have been designed with a crossing of valve openings at pmh, to evacuate the chamber volume of its exhaust gases and to have only fresh mixture. This inevitably lets go from new gasoline to the exhaust, + or - depending on the regime.

Towards the 90s, fashion came to multi-valve engines (16v), Europeans only sought power, the Japanese produced many economical engines. zero valve crossing, thus eliminating this fatal loss of HC, reducing the work of the catalyst, and creating a kind of passive EGR (volume of chamber = exhaust gas).

Perhaps a way to be able to do without the catalyst with the water doping, taking into account that we "do not need" the maximum power of the engine ...?

[Flytox]

A reflection on the subject of unburnt:

To gain power, distributors have been designed with a crossing of valve openings at pmh, to evacuate the chamber volume of its exhaust gases and to have only fresh mixture. This inevitably lets go from new gasoline to the exhaust, + or - depending on the regime.

For old carburetor or indirect injection engines. Now with direct injection we can limit the phenomenon a lot by injecting later compared to the closing of the exhaust valve.

As you point out, the crossover is mainly used to be able to take more engine speed and the horses that go with it. But as we rarely use the large surplus of power, we end up with a completely oversized engine (too crossed), not at all optimized, for low revs by far the most used. It's not a seller maximum speed 130 km / h . The "normal" operation becomes the underload with poor efficiency.

Perhaps a way to be able to do without the catalyst with the water doping, taking into account that we "do not need" the maximum power of the engine ...?

Especially since by partially closing the pot with the reactor, we have already sacrificed top speed.

[dede2002]

Now with direct injection we can limit the phenomenon a lot by injecting later compared to the closing of the exhaust valve.
:

Direct injections are (fortunately) not yet generalized ...

[Flytox]

Direct injections are only (fortunately) not yet generalized ...

Can you develop?

[dede2002]

We deviate a bit from the subject ...
My personal opinion of repairer: it is a complication and new sources of breakdowns.
I only saw a few VW models, one of which had a bug in the management of the NOx probe.
The car worked perfectly with zero gas (HC, CO), but lit its "pollution" indicator 300 km after resetting it.
Solution proposed by the agency: change the NOx probe, its control unit, possibly the main unit and the software.
No follow-up, the client preferred to change the car ...

[Pascalou]

I did a lot of calculations, but these seem to be the most representative:
We start on the basis of the dissociation of 1 liter of H2O

Case1) water dissociates into OH- and H +:
Each OH bond has a molar energy of 460 kJ
water molar mass: 55,6 mol / l
55,6 * 460 = 25576 kJ
i.e.: 7,1 Kwh for 1l dissociated

Case 2) water dissociates into H and O:
460 * 2 = 920
i.e. 14,2 Kwh for 1 l dissociated

On these bases, and considering a case of a consumption of 1L / h of water by an engine with a Gillier Pantone system. And that this water is already preheated thanks to 1Kwh by the energy of the exhaust (already calculated), we can therefore say that the energy given by the exhaust is 1/7 for case 1 and 1/14 in the case 2 to dissociate all the water (which in theory is never a dissociation of all the water).
We now make the theory that 20% of the water will be dissociated, so the energy ratio taken from the exhaust increases: 7/10 for case 1 and 1/3 for case 2. So in these cases, l The energy still required for this dissociation is not at all great. And certainly supplied in the engine at the time of combustion, or even perhaps during compression (which would be optimal!)

It should be considered that a useful 50 Kwh car delivers 250 Kwh thermal.
The steam "undergoes" this cycle is is directly in contact with this thermal heat since it "passes through the mill" in the combustion under high pressure. In addition, it is widely accepted that the temperature rises to at least 2000 ° C in the combustion.
So if my calculations are correct, the dissociation of part of the water is very possible. And even if it is not as simple, this calculation allows a base of reflection.
What do you think, are my calculations correct?

[dede2002]

Hello ,

Anyway, case 2 seems too high, since 1 liter of gasoline generates about 10 kWh (pci), part of which comes from the manufacture of a liter of water?

I never studied chemistry ...

A+

[Pascalou]

Hi, we can't compare gasoline and water, one is fuel and the other is not. Water stores the "waste" of the engine (the energy of the fuel) to be valorized by the water (in the reactor and in the engine itself). water will never be a fuel, it can only transmit energy, it will always restore zero energy, that is to say that it will be able to provide the same energy that is given to it, no more. It is the ash from the combustion of hydrogen.
But the thermal heat supplied by the fuel will be valued by the water. This is the mystery that we are trying to solve.