New battery technology

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Gaston
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by Gaston » 27/05/14, 10:06

Grelinette wrote:Besides, I have a small technical question for the electrical specialists:

Is there, as for vehicles with internal combustion engines, not to have the tank (the battery) filled completely?

Yes there is an interest (as long as we can not transmit the "overflow" of energy at a distance): keep an engine brake.
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by elephant » 27/05/14, 10:35

Let’s try not to over-solve engineer problems from a distance.

It is very likely that often the excess braking current exceeds the charge capacity (charge current) of the battery. A part will inevitably be converted into heat.
However, experience has taught us that there are days when it is better to have all of its autonomy (see the tip of the Nissan leaf in Canada in the middle of winter which we talked about 2 or 3 months ago)
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by Gaston » 27/05/14, 10:49

elephant wrote:Let’s try not to over-solve engineer problems from a distance.
: Shock:

elephant wrote:It is very likely that often the excess braking current exceeds the charge capacity (charge current) of the battery. A part will inevitably be converted into heat.
Grelinette asked if there was un advantage.
I just point out that an EV that leaves at full load at the top of a mountain will be obliged to make the entire descent without no Engine brake. Like a neutral thermal vehicle :?
It is un in case it is better not to leave with the full battery.

elephant wrote:However, experience has taught us that there are days when it is better to have all of its autonomy (see the tip of the Nissan leaf in Canada in the middle of winter which we talked about 2 or 3 months ago)
Yes, there are days (or situations) when it is better to leave the battery full and days when it is preferable that it is not full ...
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by elephant » 27/05/14, 11:40

Because you can plan ALL your routes, EVERY day?

Not me: there are days when I think I will do 24 km, and I find myself at 8 o'clock in the evening having done 240!

I like this "powder" system, provided it is economically and technologically valid: it is the same rate of energy transfer as hydrocarbons.
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by Grelinette » 27/05/14, 11:44

Gaston wrote:...
Grelinette asked if there was un advantage.
I just point out that an EV that leaves at full load at the top of a mountain will be obliged to make the entire descent without no Engine brake. Like a neutral thermal vehicle :?
It is un in case it is better not to leave with the full battery.

elephant wrote:However, experience has taught us that there are days when it is better to have all of its autonomy (see the tip of the Nissan leaf in Canada in the middle of winter which we talked about 2 or 3 months ago)
Yes, there are days (or situations) when it is better to leave the battery full and days when it is preferable that it is not full ...

It's true, I forgot this detail of engine brake with full batteries, which besides had given us a problem with the hybrid carriage : Shock: : we had to put in parallel a mechanical brake and a motor brake which operate at the same time or one after the other with necessarily a difference in braking.

In the case of our horse-drawn prototype, taking into account the slow speed, the braking differences are not a big problem, but I imagine that this problem is much more important when it is a car which drives more 100 km / h.

Besides, I remember hearing a driver of a Lexus hybrid regret the absence of an engine brake on his car when going downhill ... (Is this problem solved on recent models?)
Edit: This remark found on a car test site:
“As with all hybrids, the feeling when braking is a little weird, with a sometimes spongy pedal. At first, we are scared. But, despite the feeling on the pedal a little soft, in fact it brakes well! "


This is yet another very interesting technical subject, certainly which takes us a little away from the initial subject, but we can imagine that this problem can be managed with a secondary buffer battery shedding the energy produced, in particular downhill, and always keep the main batteries not full to maintain a good engine brake.

Unless a new battery technology makes it possible to always accept recharging energy even when the batteries are full! ...
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by Gaston » 27/05/14, 11:50

elephant wrote:Because you can plan ALL your routes, EVERY day?
If I live at the top of a hill, I can predict that EVERY day I will go down from my house.

elephant wrote:I like this "powder" system, provided it is economically and technologically valid: it is the same rate of energy transfer as hydrocarbons.
I did not see any "powder" in the article you indicate.
It just talks about the electrolyte that you can pump (probably liquid).
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by chatelot16 » 27/05/14, 23:03

cases where electricity is produced during the whole descent are rare: you need a big descent, and drive fairly slowly

I often see descents or a normal car goes down to 70 or 80km / h in freewheeling: if we want to drive at 90km / h we consume! we don't charge the battery

if you drive at 40km / h you lose less aerodynamic power and charge the battery

so no illusion about recovery: we can leave the battery full and too bad if the first slowdown is lost in heat ... after a few km there will be a little space in the battery
Last edited by chatelot16 the 27 / 05 / 14, 23: 14, 1 edited once.
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by chatelot16 » 27/05/14, 23:13

powder battery? I see the zinc powder coming!

zinc is the real fuel for alkaline or saline batteries

we can make batteries with liquid electrolyte and supplied with zinc powder ... but we must also recover the zinc oxide which will be produced, and recycled by the factory which makes the zinc with another energy source

I am not convinced that it is better than using the same energy to make a synthetic liquid fuel to put in a conventional combustion engine

the efficiency of the internal combustion engine is not very good but it is light ... the electric gas plant is much heavier, and even if the efficiency of the electric motor is better we lose the benefit by the battery weight carry

in the case of classic drums we appreciate the simplicity

in the case of zinc powder cells the disadvantages are cumulative: heavy complicated, not autonomous: it depends on the manufacturer of zinc

zinc powder could be a solution for centralized electrical storage plant at EDF level ... but according to calculations that I made a long time ago zinc is more expensive than lead: therefore in fixed installation or weight is not a problem lead acid battery is the least bad
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by Grelinette » 28/05/14, 09:25

chatelot16 wrote:powder battery? I see the zinc powder coming!

Powder of zinc or another metal, or maybe even a mixture of several metals? ... The mystery remains complete!

I may know more soon because I am seeing this specialist in electrical production and storage who seemed to know more about this new technology.

I'll try to pull the worms out of him! : Cheesy:

(Addition: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc . These debates and hypotheses allow us each time to learn a little more about subjects close to our daily life. Thank you Chatelot!)

And re-adding: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyde_de_zinc
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by elephant » 28/05/14, 12:10

Gaston said:

If I live at the top of a hill, I can predict that EVERY day I will go down from my house.


Yep! and also plan a lightning rod to recover the energy of lightning, while you are there! :D

That each econologist deploys "his" trick to save money in a particular area, we agree. But let's not forget that researchers are there to develop systems that can suit everyone in as many situations as possible.

There is something that does not always make people laugh in green circles is that either you have to be rich (minimum 2 salaries at 2500 euros all taxes deducted / household) is very undemanding and in addition lead a very regular life.

So, if you do not live in the city or in the suburbs, that you are very demanding for the education and the leisures of your children, that you are for example intervention technician and overbooked, you do not enter their schemes .
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