First hydrogen trains

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
Bardal
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Re: ... First hydrogen trains




by Bardal » 13/10/18, 17:14

geo444 wrote:
Ahmed wrote:I am "downright Biomass-Skeptic!" In what way a process whatever it is and assuming that it is virtuous from the point of view CO² ...

It's extremely simple :
la biomass - especially if nothing is done = the Current Case ...
anyway ends up degrading into CO2 and CH4 = GHG 100 times more powerful!

Methanization is an almost free production GHG issue
... and Downright Free versus Oil + Gas imported from "Democratures / Autocracies"
and paid from ~ 40 à ~ 80 Billion $ per year!

la biomass is infinitely renewable ...
-vs- Oil + Gas are Fossil Energies that Increase GHGs!

: Wink:


Don't get too many illusions, Geo, biomass is already the first source of renewable energy, in France as in the world, and the available balance is much lower than what your figures say… I refer you to what is happening in Germany (Friends of the Earth has already widely denounced the ecological catastrophe that this sector represents in Germany) and I also refer you to the exact state of the availability of the forest in France (see here: http://www.lutopik.com/Lutopik_8web.pdf ), well below what some say…

We can probably get a little more energy from wood (the use of which in France has dropped since 1990), probably in the form, very diluted, of fuel for small dispersed installations (this is one of the processes of most polluting heating); but it won't la miracle energy source, and especially not for transport, which represents more than a third of the energy consumed in France (more than 500 TeraWh / year); we are not in the same order of magnitude.

I also remind you that the earth, which carries and nourishes this "infinitely renewable biomass", needs to be given back part of what it has produced to remain fertile; what seem to care very little about the German "bio-gas" industrialists, extracting from the ground all they can draw from it, the time that will last the public subsidies which support them; nothing to do with sustainable agriculture concerned with preserving the soil ... ( http://www.amisdelaterre.org/Mais-metha ... icite.html ).

All this not out of "biomass skepticism", but only for the sake of realism, and not to systematically err on the side of the road to take.
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geo444
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Re: ... First hydrogen trains




by geo444 » 16/11/18, 19:26

bardal wrote:... Biomass is already the first source of renewable energy, globally,
and Available Balance is much less than what you say...

Is this misinformation ... or are you gleefully tricking yourself? : Mrgreen:
> read this STP link: https://france-biomethane.fr/2018/03/26/gaz-vert-le-gouvernement-donne-un-coup-daccelerateur/
Summary : france-biomethane.fr/2018/03/26 48 bio Green Methane Product ° sites.fr from agricultural waste,
1% hardly Conso. Total Gas. Less than 800 GWh were injected into the GRDF Network in 2017, compared to more than 10 TWh,
13 times more in Germany. More than 860 projects identified, administrative procedures need to be simplified ...

and this page concerns ONLY Agricultural Waste ...
-the dredging sludge from the channels, etc ... from the Decantation Station, Retention Lakes, etc ... from the Wastewater Treatment plants, etc ...
- there are Old or Current Discharges that produce tons of Methane ... without their knowledge!
-the tree stumps, the Chablis due to the storms which rot on site in CO2 and methane ...
-The remains of canteens, restaurants, homes, accident victims, unsold goods, etc.
-Hey ... I forgot to talk about Algae, Ditches, Duck Ponds, etc ...
you must think that all this will end up in CH4 / CO2 anyway!

Currently, we don't even value 1% of this Mash of Bio-Waste in Bio-Gas, Ethanol, etc ...

bardal wrote:... and I also refer you to the exact state of availability of the Forest in France...

No need to even type in our beautiful forests in France!
But ... if we don't clear them - and still Giga tons of Bio-Mass - they will end up like in California! :(
> see the Doubs à Sec for months! :o

When we have banned Glyphosate and other things, we will sell Weed Robots ...
- and still Giga tons of Bio-Mass to be upgraded in Gas, Alcohol, etc ...

bardal wrote:... I also remind you that the earth, which carries and nourishes this "infinitely renewable biomass",
needs some part of it to remain fertile ...

Mon Pôvre ... takes 10-12 years to Authorize-Finance-Build a Methanizer in France ...
... at this speed ... in 100 years we will talk about it again ... we will be ~ 25% ~ ?
if we do nothing, the Planet will be Cramed long before!

By the way ... the residue from anaerobic digestion is a very effective 100% organic fertilizer! : roll:

And you just forget one thing: Germany is 2 times more densely populated and 3 times more industrialized ...
... that our Great Beautiful Wild Country ... full of emptiness in the middle!

;)
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moinsdewatt
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Re: First hydrogen trains




by moinsdewatt » 16/11/18, 19:41

Pepy wants the end of diesel locomotives at SNCF in 2035

Reuters 16 / 11 / 2018

SNCF will stop using diesel locomotives by 2030-2035 to replace them with hydrogen powered trains, announced SNCF general manager Guillaume Pepy on Friday.

"We need to get out of rail diesel not in 2050 as was planned but in 2030-2035," Guillaume Pepy said on RTL.

To do this, the railway company relies on prototypes of hydrogen locomotives developed by Alstom.

"From the beginning of next year we will stop the operation. We will place an order in the summer, it will probably be Alstom prototypes and we will have these prototypes I hope in early 2022 in France," said Guillaume Pepy.

While the majority of SNCF traffic today passes through electrified tracks, diesel locomotives still represent around 20% of the company's fleet.


https://www.boursorama.com/actualite-ec ... 70791d337a
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geo444
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... First hydrogen trains




by geo444 » 04/12/18, 15:05

moinsdewatt wrote:SNCF will stop using diesel locomotives by 2030-2035 to replace them, in particular with hydrogen powered trains

Good resolution if it helps the production ofH2 Wind and Solar during Low Consumption hours. Electric...
> see previous page Power-to-Gas Progress = Latest Electrolysis Technos
https://www.econologie.com/forums/nouveaux-transports/premiers-trains-a-hydrogene-t15771-30.html#p345577
as well as Bio-Gas which we can draw from as wellH2 only GTL extension !

geo444 wrote: > https://france-biomethane.fr/2018/03/26/gaz-vert-le-gouvernement-donne-un-coup-daccelerateur/
Summary : france-biomethane.fr/2018/03/26 48 bio Green Methane Product ° sites.fr from agricultural waste,
1% hardly Conso. Total Gas. Less than 800 GWh were injected into the GRDF Network in 2017, compared to more than 10 TWh,
13 times more in Germany. More than 860 Identified projects, it is necessary to simplify the Administrative Procedures ...

and this page concerns ONLY Agricultural Waste ...
-the dredging sludge from the channels, etc ... from the Decantation Station, Retention Lakes, etc ... from the Wastewater Treatment plants, etc ...
- there are Old or Current Discharges that produce tons of Methane ... without their knowledge!
-the tree stumps, the Chablis due to the storms which rot on site in CO2 and methane ...
-The remains of canteens, restaurants, homes, accident victims, unsold goods, etc.
-Hey ... I forgot to talk about Algae, Ditches, Duck Ponds, etc ...
you must think that all this will end in any case CH4 + CO2 !

Currently, we don't even value 1% of this Mash of Bio-Waste in Bio-Gas, Ethanol, etc ...

Not even need to type in our beautiful forests of France !
But ... if we don't clear them - and still Giga tons of Bio-Mass - they will end up like in California! :(
> see the Doubs à Sec for months! :o

When we have banned Glyphosate and other things, we will sell Weed Robots ...
- and still Giga tons of Bio-Mass to be upgraded in Gas, Alcohol, etc ...

it is very important to continue helping with anaerobic digestion - without dedicated cultures!
- otherwise return to agro-fuels = Error with the drop in yields !

the main obstacles to the development of Bio-Gas Methanization:
= the administrative leennteeuur + the shyness of the Banks, see before, above ...
= except injection into the Gas Network: these are Short Circuits = that does not interest the Cac-40!
= France has a good price for BIG CENTRALIZED SYSTEMS = EPR at 12 Billions!
=> No Evening Visitor Lobby will harass Macron to Promote Bio-Gas!
=> 1 Crowd comes the Torpedo to Promote + Lucrative + Systems

anyway : All this Bio-Waste as well as the Landfills Degrades in CH4 + CO2
... we therefore have every interest in recovering this bio-gas!
Ecolo Double Effect 8)

Farmers' Demand is Strong : more than 860 Fairly identified projects 48 Bio-Gas Production sites.fr:
> see https://france-biomethane.fr/2018/03/26/gaz-vert-le-gouvernement-donne-un-coup-daccelerateur/

: Wink:
EUBioGaz.png
Europe of Methanization Bio-Gas
EUBioGaz.png (55.04 KiB) Consulted 4854 times
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geo444
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... First hydrogen trains




by geo444 » 10/01/19, 12:35

geo444 wrote:- Germany is 2 times more densely populated and 3 times more industrialized ...
... that our Great Beautiful Wild Country ... full of emptiness in the middle!

-> A Graph which is taken from a Report on the Benefits, Potentials and Uses of BioGas:
http://european-biogas.eu/wp-content/up ... tworks.pdf
= France has the 4th BioGas Potential by Methanization in Europe !
... in relation to its Total Vehicle Fleet, of course.
= One can easily replace the Exploitation of the Forests by their Brushcutting : Center-Est à Sec since 8 Month!
= Organic-Waste = Eco-Déchets, Set-Aside-Land = Wasteland + Fallow land, Forest >>> Brushcutting
... Finland and Sweden, very Forests, can Reasonably Exploit it ...
.
EuBioGazVehic.png
EuBioGazVehic.png (18.95 KB) Viewed 4302 times

.
+ More All the Energy Stored in Hydrogen and / or Methane obtained by Electrolysis = Power2Gas:
... see Post Graph on Page 4 on H2, CH4 Electrolysers: Alkalines, PEM, SOEC ...
new-transport / first-trains-a-hydrogen-t15771-30.html # p345577

+ More All the Energy Stored in Hydrogen, Hydrocarbon, Methane obtained by Gasification or Pyrolysis of Wood:
= in particular the Considerable Chablis = Hundreds of Millions of tonnes...
... left to rot in place GHG after the Strong Storms from 1982 x2, 87, 90, 99 x2, 2009, etc ...
https://www.econologie.com/file/technol ... cation.pdf
Gasification, Pyrolysis of Wood carried out in Solar Furnaces ...
-> Note that this .pdf comes from this Forum ! 8)

And now the Emissions from GHG produced by a Mix 40% or one 100% BioMethane:
Doc Fiat / Lci: the CNG 40% BioMethane a bit better than the Average of the European Electricity
le CNG 100% BioMethane = the Wind Electric question CO2 Emitted = 5 g / km !
and we could replace the Alternative SP95 with GTL ...
https://www.qwant.com/?q=Fiat+Panda+0.9 ... +Turbo+GNV
the autonomy of the Panda GNV is ~ 1100 km in total vs ~ 200 for Electric!
CNG cars available in EU: https://www.gaz-mobilite.fr/voiture-gnv/
.
PandaEsGplGnvE.png
PandaEsGplGnvE.png (14.35 KB) Viewed 4302 times

.
=> Our Potential Total in Production of BioGas is Just Considerable...
... without being punished with wire-fed electrics with Asian components!
This would cause the death of one of Our Latest Industries :
http://france.eco.h2.free.fr/CarEconologyCompare.html
the Automobile has already lost Up to 50% of its workforce and means of production in France since 2000! : Cry:

: Wink:
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izentrop
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Re: First hydrogen trains




by izentrop » 10/01/19, 15:28

Hello,
The opinion of an energy specialist
Max Gabreski A car running on CNG consumes on average 4 kg of gas per 100 km. It therefore takes about 400 kg of gas per 10 km.

It takes approximately 2,5 tonnes of household organic waste to produce 150 m3 of biogas at 20 ° C at atmospheric pressure, i.e. approximately 6250 moles of biogas, at 24 L per mole at 20 ° C.
(see the graph of https://cegibat.grdf.fr/.../injection-b ... e-reseau... ).

The raw biogas is composed of 50 to 65% of methane. The rest is mainly composed of CO2, H2S, water and various impurities. (see link above)

Yes, biogas is very dirty. Full of CO2, full of hydrogen sulfide, like the house near the Nino Ferrer fountain which has disappeared to make way for the factory.
Just as the fermentation then distillation of mirabelle plum juice does not produce pure ethanol (but in this case something better :) ), the fermentation of organic waste does not produce pure methane. We often forget to say it.

Taking the most favorable case of 65% methane, we will therefore have approximately 4062 moles with 2,5 tonnes of organic waste, or 4062 x 16 (molar mass of methane) grams of methane, approximately 65 kg of methane.

We compare these 65 kg with the annual consumption of 400 kg of gas for a car, which therefore alone requires the annual treatment of more than 15 tonnes of household waste (400/65 x 2,5 tonnes) resulting in more beautiful pollution with H2S and CO2 during the methanisation process, and we close the ban.
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geo444
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... First hydrogen trains




by geo444 » 10/01/19, 17:20

.

Yep, it's Very Difficult to Admit when you descend from the "Ideal Planet", but here ...
... we have never been able to manufacture: neither devices ... nor energy ... nor products ...
Without side effects, nor produce unwanted annexes ...

Think of the Principal Constituents of Solar, Wind turbines, Batteries, Electric motors...
= Asia makes Slaves scratch the ground to extract metals and rare earths
No one has Solutions for all of these old-fashioned devices in 6 years
... and their Non-Recycling, Nobody ever Brags about it ...

The All is to fit IN NATURE PROCESSES, Without everything Adjust, all Rot ...
... Or - in this case BioGas - we can Perfectly Get There Here ... In France!

/! \ Even if we do not recover these BioGas: CH4 and H2, while storing unwanted CO, CO2 and H2S
(while waiting, for example, to reuse them perfectly in ... Hydrogen methanation ? )
Nature produces them in all ways : it's Worse = they will All Increase GHGs!
> Methane is a damn GHG, over ~ 12-15 years its GWP is 100.
It is much more interesting for us to recover it!

Easy to Check : if you Light up the Bubbles coming up from the Canal, from La Marre = it's Methane!
+ the Asphyxiated Dead Horse and Jogger on the beaches covered with Algae = it's H2S!
Forests that crumble in increasingly hot, dry summers, full of CO2!
- Everything that Burns, Rots on Earth - ends up in CH4, CO2, H2, H2S, etc ...

So it's a Triple Bonus recover H2 et CH4 rather than Burning Fossil Fuels:
-1) We prevent them from going - Naturally - Increase Atmospheric GHGs
-2) Are infinitely Renewable = it's Not Carbon Stored from Eternity that we swing in the Atmosphere!
-3) The more CO (2), H2S Annexes are recovered ... that Oil, Coal ...

Increasingly, large GHG emitters must recover them:
- example: the Alicante Cement Plant which takes advantage of this to produce Bio-Fuel, Omega
https://www.qwant.com/?q=Cimenterie+Ali ... +Omega-3-6
... the time will also come for small transmitters ...

So you have to consider everything:
... which is 100% Feasible Here In France in the case of BioGas,
without all this Oriental that we don't know where to throw in 6 years:
http://france.eco.h2.free.fr/GoHydrogenFC.html

: Wink:
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Bardal
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Re: First hydrogen trains




by Bardal » 10/01/19, 18:31

But, geo, nobody says that it is impossible to do, to recover methane from biomass; or even that it should not be done when it is economically interesting ...

On the other hand, there is no need to delude yourself on the amount of energy that can be recovered in the operation; even with energy crops, the amount recovered will be unrelated to the energy necessary to run a modern society, even an economical one; and it will remain to prove that it would not be easier to vaporize by direct combustion of this biomass ...

As for producing hydrogen-energy from this CH4, it is adding an expensive step to obtain a fuel that is not very simple to manage and use ... What can it be used for, apart from very specific situations ...


It would be, in my humble opinion, much more profitable and efficient to use this biomass as a source of heat for buildings (efficiency not far from 100%), near the sources of production, and in not too concentrated habitat (it is a source of polluting energy, as recalled by izentrop a little above), or as a source of agricultural fuel for animal excrement and waste ...

If it is a priority to deal with harmful methane emissions, there is an urgent need to deal with the leakage of emissions linked to coal, oil or gas extraction, and to find a solution to enteric CH4 emissions due to animal husbandry cattle and sheep ...

PS The recovery of hydrogen, I don't know what it is ...
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Re: First hydrogen trains




by moinsdewatt » 22/05/19, 00:29

Alstom to supply the world's largest fleet of hydrogen trains

OLIVIER COGNASSE Usine Nouvelle on 21/05/2019

The French manufacturer has just won a contract for 27 trains powered by a fuel cell. A call for tenders launched by fahma, a subsidiary of the German operator RMV.

Alstom now has several hydrogen trains ahead of the competition. After putting into service the first two Coradia iLint trains powered by a fuel cell last September on the Elbe-Weser network in Lower Saxony - there will be 14 as of 2021 - the French manufacturer confirms its advance in this technology.

It has just won the tender launched by fahma, a subsidiary of the German operator Rhein-Main Verkehrsverbund (RMV) for the delivery from 2022 of 27 Coradia iLint trains that will replace diesel trainsets on four lines in the region. from Taunus. Alstom will also have to provide hydrogen, maintenance and the provision of reserve capacity for 25 years. A contract that reaches 500 million euros, including 360 million for Alstom.

Alstom, SNCF and the regions mobilize for hydrogen

These trains will run on lines RB11 (Frankfurt-Höchst - Bad Soden), RB12 (Frankfurt - Königstein), RB15 (Frankfurt - Bad Homburg - Brandoberndorf) and RB16 (Friedrichsdorf - Friedberg). The new trains will be supplied with hydrogen in the Höchst industrial park.

The 27 iLints will have 160 seats per car and will increase train capacity by 40%, in particular for commuter trains during rush hour.

Other countries are interested in this technology such as Italy, the United Kingdom, Canada, Sweden and France whose government wants the train to be certified in 2022.

The strategic contract for the railway sector signed on April 9 favors R&D focused on hydrogen or battery trains to replace trains running on diesel. SNCF, Alstom and the regions are working hand in hand to develop the first prototypes as quickly as possible.

https://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/a ... de.N845610
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A.D. 44
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Re: First hydrogen trains




by A.D. 44 » 22/05/19, 07:35

moinsdewatt wrote: The strategic contract for the railway sector signed on April 9 favors R&D focused on hydrogen or battery trains to replace trains running on diesel. SNCF, Alstom and the regions are working hand in hand to develop the first prototypes as quickly as possible.


Yes ! Quick, quick, quick ... Before the lines or essentially circulating these diesels are sold ... what mess are we still preparing?

SNCF, Alstom and the regions hand in hand ... How cute !!!

One is missing in this pretty round ... No?
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